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neemekas
03-26-2008, 17:37
Firstly i would like to say: my English isn't very good, but I hope you understand mostly what I mean here.


Ok to the thread.

I know NW have own traditions and rules from old WoW game.
I am Estonian player, so I know everything about our game "Domination".

As most of you know that these 2 games have different standart attack formula. Of course both have here own plusses or minuses, but I think we should change NW SA formula a bit. I dont know how exatly, but something must be done.

Why we need to do that?

I think with stradegy farmer, scientist or maybe even casher (not sure) you CAN'T win set no mather how good player you are. Even BEST players can't win with farmer or scientist (casher maybe). Indy is only stradegy here what brings us to TOP! WE SHOULD CHANGE IT SOMEHOW and best we can do is changing SA formula (I think).

In domination of course most of the best players played indy to get TOP, but there you could get TOP also with farmer, casher or scientist. I have won 1 set in domination and with FARMER. Can someone do this in NW?



Thoughts and critique are welcome!

EDIT: My friend skycat told that with casher you can win set in NW, but mostly I mean here farmer. Discuss!


If someone have time, then please correct my mistakes here too. :D I have to learn English more. :P

pron
03-26-2008, 17:42
What's wrong with the SA formula that you want to change and how is it limiting to the other strats besides indy?

-Z-
03-26-2008, 17:44
welcome,


this game is a game of time. time is key.

indys allways come out in the lead,

but if you play it right useing stocking, cashing, researching and proper grabbing, (jets agms) cashers and farmers can do well.


i have seen cashers win in the past i think.


Z

SkyCat
03-26-2008, 17:46
i have seen cashers win in the past i think.




DOLLY

neemekas
03-26-2008, 17:54
Ok casher is OK then, but you still can't win set with farmer.
You cant make right stock here!

Some examples from NW and Domination SA formula:

NW:

Your land: 12000
Opponent land: 12000
SA's down: 5
You get: 336

Your land: 5000
Opponent land: 3000
SA's down: 1
You get: 179

Your land: 25000
Opponent land: 35000
SA's down: 4
You get: 1785

Your land: 8000
Opponent land: 17000
SA's down: 10
You get: 452

Your land: 17000
Opponent land: 10000
SA's down: 8
You get: 181


Domination:

Your land: 12000
Opponent land: 12000
SA's down: 5
You get: 262

Your land: 5000
Opponent land: 3000
SA's down: 1
You get: 164

Your land: 25000
Opponent land: 35000
SA's down: 4
You get: 1420

Your land: 8000
Opponent land: 17000
SA's down: 10
You get: 81

Your land: 17000
Opponent land: 10000
SA's down: 8
You get: 86

SPECIALLY LOOK AT THE 4TH EXAMPLE!

Dogma
03-26-2008, 17:58
I have been in top 3 using farmer, but that was because nation members help 1 and 2. But if played correctly, there are ways it can be done.

Also Since we just got the game back, I see no real reason to make that type of change at this time, lets play it for a while and get a better fssl for what is what.

Crimson Shadow
03-26-2008, 18:41
I honestly see no reason to change it at the moment. Yes more land gets taken from you, however it is not like those grabs apply only to farmer/techers. Grabs do not favor certain strats over another is what I'm trying to say.

If the strat is played right it could win the set. I've finished top 5 multiple times with casher, but I've never played farmer or techer so I can't say how easy it would be to do with those. You just have to stragetize a little more when you are not playing indy.

youngwebsolutions
03-26-2008, 18:56
as already stated by mr. P. we won't change anything on the game for next couple of rounds
Except for bug fixing, and minor improvements

If we face that a certain strategy is too strong/too weak we will make of course adjustments based on the players input!

We very welcome your inpunt, but just let's play now for a set or 2 and see what this all brings..
We all have to get used to this code (again, or completly) and time will tell if somthing is right or wrong.


Please keep bringing your input for the game, but keep in mind that big changes will not be implemented upcoming sets.. (we spend already a lot of time getting this too work and wanna play a bit now as well :w00t:)

will keep an eye on all your suggestions however!

Rassputtin
03-26-2008, 19:30
I definitly don't think changes should be made just yet, I mean we are only a few days into the first set. Unless of course they are glaring flaws of which I believe there are none.

However I will mention that in the past many many moons ago, I made the same arguement to svenne in regards to the fact that every strat should be 100% equal. There should be no better chance of winning the game based on the strat you use but instead winning the game should be based on how well you play whatever strat you choose.

Granted you guys arent svenne, and this aint WOW, but for example 1000 acres of farmland should produce the same dollar amount of food as 1000 acres of indy land would produce units. Thats just an example of equalness. I'm not sure changing LG formula is solution.

Mattter of fact its been so long since I played or analyzed it that I couldnt even be sure there is actually a problem with the strat balance. So i suppose as YWS said, wait and see if after a few sets if there actually is an inbalance before the code is tinkered with unwarranted.

Also, you all should look forward to my red turn thread. havent created it yet, but I will. The arguement I had with svenne for years will be brought to YWS and Pres. :-)

Mr President
03-26-2008, 19:51
Ok casher is OK then, but you still can't win set with farmer.
You cant make right stock here!

Some examples from NW and Domination SA formula:

NW:

Your land: 12000
Opponent land: 12000
SA's down: 5
You get: 336

Your land: 5000
Opponent land: 3000
SA's down: 1
You get: 179

Your land: 25000
Opponent land: 35000
SA's down: 4
You get: 1785

Your land: 8000
Opponent land: 17000
SA's down: 10
You get: 452

Your land: 17000
Opponent land: 10000
SA's down: 8
You get: 181


Domination:

Your land: 12000
Opponent land: 12000
SA's down: 5
You get: 262

Your land: 5000
Opponent land: 3000
SA's down: 1
You get: 164

Your land: 25000
Opponent land: 35000
SA's down: 4
You get: 1420

Your land: 8000
Opponent land: 17000
SA's down: 10
You get: 81

Your land: 17000
Opponent land: 10000
SA's down: 8
You get: 86

SPECIALLY LOOK AT THE 4TH EXAMPLE!

I don't think his complaint is all about the strats. I think it's also on the amount of land he is getting per attack and seeing it is low, he is thinking that he will never win a set running farmer.

I'm not sure about the Estonian server, but in this game we have what we call a GB formula. What this does is limit how much land you get off someone based on prior attack (last 36hrs).

If you SA a state, and get 100 land, and then do another attack on him, you will get 30% less land each attack thereafter.

This helps keep your land. If we didn't have a GB formula then you would lose a lot of land each attack.

Also, we are only a few days in the set. So land amounts are not that high. So when you attack, you only gain a certain amount of land anyway. Once we get further in the set, you will see your land grabs much higher.

-Z- is 100% correct when he said this is a game of time. You have to search your grabs and put time into your state.. If not, then your payoff will be less.

As for strat balance. I do believe they are pretty close. I know svenne put a lot of effort into making them as balanced as possible. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it is pretty close i think.

Farmer strat is a strong strat. Your not seeing a lot of food purchased at the moment cause states are still small. Once we get about 1/2- 3/4 through the set, you will see food prices shoot up cause there will be a shortage of it. And then farmers will reap the rewards of higher priced food cause casher and indy states will have so many more military units by then.

Just remember, we are only a few days in the set so things are slower and less at the moment.

I'm not against making changes, and i encourage everyone to voice there opinion. We are listening. We may not act on a change right at that minute, but it all goes on a list of things to keep and eye on or even change later down the road.

The Estonian code is an older code so again, i'm not sure if it has the GB formula in it or not. Or if it does, it may be an older version of the formula.

But i do know back in WoW days, there were a few nations and states that placed very high running farmer. And i know you can win a set as a casher cause many of the states in my nation has done so.. granted i was never good enough to finish first lol..

Tnova
03-26-2008, 20:32
If my memory serves me correct, the primary reason the grab formula was changed was to limit stocking. The effect was to make people want to jump higher in order to keep the land advantage by staying higher and limiting the number of players that could grab them. This would induce more expense and limit stocking with out changing the balance of the individual strats.

However it is nearly impossible for a casher/farmer to jump to the front and play like an indy player does(unless you get creative). Because, there is an imbalance with the strats at the start of the set and that grab formula change did widen this gap some. The grab formula really benefits the person with lower land now, so if you have a lot of land and stay around people with lets say around 50% of your land, then it is going to cost you, even if you have quiet a few hits on your state with in the last 36 hours.

My personal opinion, and i posted on this last year, the real imbalance is how the strategies relate and benefit the nations. No other nation can keep up with a pure indy nation, and this aids there ability to jump out front early and have someone maintain the lead. All the other pure nation strats have to have a higher tax longer, and in cashers case have double the tech cost, and still can't compete with the benefits indy nations get from being double tax( donation to nation army, and sales from market goods) at no cost to the individual states. Even large multi strat nations can't really do the trick. There were plenty of times where individual state wise people have been able to out jump an indy player early in the game, but the nations have problems supporting that state.

The best player rarely wins as markets, wars, and nation set up can change the outcome for any player. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but sometimes you got a player who really has no clue what they are doing(although they think they are hot stuff), and one of the things above can happen and allow them to take the lead.

neemekas
03-27-2008, 01:28
I am not saying we have to change SA formula now, we should try to make in future yes, like you said maybe in 2-3 sets.
It's not possible in NW to get like 17k land if you are in like 80. place and 40-79. place have 10k land. You will be always grabbed down.

I think you cant go TOP3 with farmer when there isnt any wars, with just netting i think it's kinda impossible. I dont know, maybe some good player want to take challenge and prove me that i am wrong.

But dont get me wrong, my favourite stradegy is indy, but if there is like half set played you can see exactly who is gonna win this set without war. In domination, if there was like half set played, good farmer could jump to TOP5 and make things more interesting.

Dogma
03-27-2008, 14:13
This isn't Domination, This is Nation Wars. The Domination server is still running I presume?

Xavior
03-27-2008, 19:52
Every strat has won a set in WoW. Evil n00b won once or twice as Techer. And there were quite a few sets (I think back to FW) where farmers ruled the top and won. But of course, this was before the grab formula was changed so our stocking farmer strat was much more difficult to play.

evilnoob
03-28-2008, 13:00
If everyone just read Tnovas post again. There is a reason he has been ranked 1 in a suicide list long time.

Mr_President: neemekas explained the difference in GB formula for domination & NW. But no offence, only skilled players can see it just by reading once and maybe not even then :)


What neemekas says is that the strategies is not balanced, considering the top 1 rank. And this thread is about that. Not about top 10.

Indy just join any indy nation, and if he is just know little bit about SA, he can win.

Casher need a good nation to get top 1. Or need to be good. Preferable both, or it gets hard. If you plan to have atleast top 4 in your nation, then there might be advantage to be casher. Preferable to get nation average record.

Farmer is made for stockpiling. The gb formula prevents stockpiling now. You will not win as a stockpiler. So there is a smal problem. But it can be done.
You dont play farmer to get top 1, you play farmer to get a big fat nw record.

Techer... well only reason to win as techer is to prove that you can do it :)
You need a few friends to kill off everyone that comes close to you once your science stops selling. Maybe you need to have 10-20 states killed?

Dogma
03-28-2008, 13:10
I always thought it was because he was good at catching people exploiting bugs.

neemekas
03-28-2008, 13:34
Thank you evilnoob for helping me out.
Good post +1.

Mr President
03-28-2008, 13:47
Mr_President: neemekas explained the difference in GB formula for domination & NW. But no offence, only skilled players can see it just by reading once and maybe not even then :)

Well i did read his post wrong. I went back and read is again. But i will agree i am far from a skilled player lol..




Farmer is made for stockpiling. The gb formula prevents stockpiling now. You will not win as a stockpiler. So there is a smal problem. But it can be done.
You dont play farmer to get top 1, you play farmer to get a big fat nw record.


This doesn't make sense to me. It kind of seems like you contradict yourself. You say farmer is for stockpiling and you won't win, but then you say ppl play farmer to get the big fat net worth.. well wouldn't a big fat networth put you in 1st place?

anyway, these conversations are the same as we had in WoW. I'm not saying all strats are balanced though and down the line we can look into changing them. I still feel that the best way to take the top spot is to war your way there. You don't have to be the best netter in the game to win a top spot. Just kill off anyone in your way :P

neemekas
03-28-2008, 14:07
You said that all strats arent balanced, but we should balance them! At the moment, I am TOP2 in NW, i am not scared of any farmers, becouse I know they wont catch me never without war, it's impossible. I dont have to look out from them. In Domination you never knew, maybe there was 1 good stocker, who can come TOP and take your land. You had always look out, you had to make spy op's to find out how good are someone. But here is nothing, there isnt coming no1 from 100. place to TOP1. BOORING lets say.

True war is best way to win, if your nation is active and skilled players are with you. A lot of Estonian came now here to play, I think all knows how well we can net or war. Many pple are even scared of us, maybe even think we shouldn't play (there were some pple in wow times who thougth that). I can go to TOP with or without war, if I want, it's not problem for me. But I just want there will be more better players who net for 1st place. Some good stockers could come out when there is last 10 days left and make game more and more interesting and attractive for all. I think all want to see how TOP changes a lot and good players changing places. It's just booring when you play first 5 days and all know who is gonna win set WITHOUT war yes.

More balance to strats, work on that President!

Mr President
03-28-2008, 14:32
You said that all strats arent balanced, but we should balance them! At the moment, I am TOP2 in NW, i am not scared of any farmers, becouse I know they wont catch me never without war, it's impossible. I dont have to look out from them. In Domination you never knew, maybe there was 1 good stocker, who can come TOP and take your land. You had always look out, you had to make spy op's to find out how good are someone. But here is nothing, there isnt coming no1 from 100. place to TOP1. BOORING lets say.

True war is best way to win, if your nation is active and skilled players are with you. A lot of Estonian came now here to play, I think all knows how well we can net or war. Many pple are even scared of us, maybe even think we shouldn't play (there were some pple in wow times who thougth that). I can go to TOP with or without war, if I want, it's not problem for me. But I just want there will be more better players who net for 1st place. Some good stockers could come out when there is last 10 days left and make game more and more interesting and attractive for all. I think all want to see how TOP changes a lot and good players changing places. It's just booring when you play first 5 days and all know who is gonna win set WITHOUT war yes.

More balance to strats, work on that President!

I said, "I'm not saying all strats are balanced though". Basically that is leaving my opinion free cause honestly i don't know. When i played WoW before i didn't care. netting was not my thing so i didn't pay a whole lot of attention to it. And now, yes i have the code and i host the game, but that does not mean i know it inside and out yet. After getting the code, my main goal was to get it up and going. Not to fix every little thing that people say is wrong with it and then put it up. The game is the same as it left off.

Prior to this game we had NWII which i spent many months fixing up and making it a decent game. And then this game came back, so i stopped working on that and worked on getting this game up and going. So i have been doing a lot for a long time now and i'm not doing anything with this game for a few sets. Sorry, but i do have a life and i would like to just sit back and play this game a few sets before i do anything to it.

Also, let's not forget that the members on the EE server have been playing this game while the rest of us haven't. Many of us want to get the feel for it again and relearn how to play it. So jumping right in and making changes is not the best idea.

In NWII i made the mistake of making changes to many time without really seeing how it all panned out. I will not do that again in this game. Before changes can be made, things need to be looked into further. So far the only people who keep telling us to change the game is the members from the Estonian server. That is cause your use to that game and want to make this game like that one. I'm not saying your suggestions are not welcome, but let's slow down some. Telling me to "work on that" isn't going to help either lol..

Once we play a couple of sets and see how things play out, then we will look into what needs to be changed to make things even, or better. But playing this game for a week and then making changes on it is dumb in my opinion.

And i'm sorry, but i don't feel the same way as you do. I honestly don't know who is going to win the set. You seem to know, but i also think you are underestimating some of the members we have from WoW. The Estonians are great players and will do well i'm sure. But like i said, 90% of us are just getting back into this game and getting use to things again. Once some of the regular players who always did well in WoW get back in the swing of things, you won't be so "bored".

We are merging 2 servers in this game. Our version and the EE version. it will take some time for BOTH sides to get use to playing the game with eachother again and getting use to how each of us play. I don't think anyone dislikes anyone else, i think it's just a relearning period for all of us.
But in the end, i think everything will be fine.

Dogma
03-28-2008, 14:54
I don't get why we SHOULD try and make this game like The EE server. If that is so much a better game, then play it. Those of us that worked for a year to keep the community together like things as they are for the moment. If you will remember all the **** changes and demands for change is what got Svenne to shut it down in the first place. WE ARE NOT GOING TO DO THAT HERE!

If we find that there are glaring changes to be made they will be made, but, Untill then, play and enjoy and quit *****ing.

neemekas
03-28-2008, 15:12
Why you dont understand me ? I dont want that the game must be same like EE server.

This is my first set after about 8-12 months, I dont remember exactly, but something like that. Here is nothing to relearn I think. If you were skilled player you still remember how you can get best net or how to war best.

Also I am not saying that you have to make changes NOW. No you dont have to. But you need to think how to make farmer strat more effective. Maybe add little farmer food production. I honestly dont know exactly too what is the best way. My idea was to change SA formula, becouse I know how it works on EE server.

And EE server is mostly DEAD! Almost all players are playing here, thats good for both of us!

Dogma
03-28-2008, 15:18
What you have to understand, from our point of view, is that we worked our asses off for a year to try and keep the community together while we tried to get the game back. We finally got it back and now the most important thing to us is to get the full community back together. That is our main goal for now. I know that Mr P has busted his *** to try and get NWII as close to what we had as he possibly could. Now we have the game back, he deserves a break and the members that we are getting back are coming back to what they knew and enjoyed. All I am saying is that we are used to this game, well, we were, and it is pointless to try and change the complexion of the game when it has only been up for a week.

And what is the reason for the EE server being almost dead? Was it the game play? was it that no one enjoyed it? There has to be a reason.

neemekas
03-28-2008, 15:22
You still didn't read whole my post.
I said that changed dont have to take place NOW!

Dont you think that we are tried to get a lot of Estonian players too. Most of work is all thanks to skycat. We are also trying to get here more and more players.

I have to go now. I post later about EE server.

Dogma
03-28-2008, 15:24
I did read your post and I understand what you are saying, but, you insist on reiterating the point when it has been said... nevermind. No point in argueing.

Mr President
03-28-2008, 15:25
Changes will happen in time don't worry. And we will look at the best way to make all the strats as fair as possible. Just takes time, and it takes people with some good suggestions.

Keep making them cause we can use them. But as long as we all know changes takes time then we are all goooooooooood! :)

northbabylon
03-28-2008, 15:44
honestly, i don't play WoW to get top state. I play it because i have a good time with the community and having a say in a nation. I actually have a better time training people then actually playing the game to get top state.

MAGGIO
03-28-2008, 15:52
Any nation playing any strat can win hands down. It takes teamwork within a nation and team work within the community. It is anyones game. How far will you go to win. I know alot of nations that would kill to win, litterally hence the name Nation Wars!

all strats can war, all strats create alliances, and strats can win.

Now if your playing as an individual, you may not be playing the right game?

Rassputtin
03-28-2008, 17:23
What you have to understand, from our point of view, is that we worked our asses off for a year to try and keep the community together while we tried to get the game back. We finally got it back and now the most important thing to us is to get the full community back together. That is our main goal for now. I know that Mr P has busted his *** to try and get NWII as close to what we had as he possibly could. Now we have the game back, he deserves a break and the members that we are getting back are coming back to what they knew and enjoyed. All I am saying is that we are used to this game, well, we were, and it is pointless to try and change the complexion of the game when it has only been up for a week.

And what is the reason for the EE server being almost dead? Was it the game play? was it that no one enjoyed it? There has to be a reason.
First let me officially say thank you. To Pres and others who kept it alive and brought it back. I haven't said that yet. Not sure how many have but thank you. OFten I typed in www.world-of-war.com and hoped just to see if maybe svenne changed his mind, but to no avail. SO again. Thank you for the time, money, effort and sacrifice made by all those who kept it going and brought it back.

I agree there should be no changes made this set. None. Probably not next set either. Because a set is only one game. And unless there is a glaring flaw you can not base anything on 1 trial. That being said I think there are things that need to be modified. But these things are.... complicated. Not something you can change on a whim. You have to ensure that you have your head wrapped around the issue in its entirety and see it from every angle before poking around. That in and of itself will take time. As Mr pres said. Yes he has the code, yes he hosts the game, but its a little early to expect him to know the innards of every detail just yet. As for my serious change suggestions I won't even voice them yet. NOt the time for that. Lets just take a set or two to enjoy the fact that we are all playing a game we love with a community we enjoy due to the efforts of a select few.


You still didn't read whole my post.
I said that changed dont have to take place NOW!

Dont you think that we are tried to get a lot of Estonian players too. Most of work is all thanks to skycat. We are also trying to get here more and more players.

I have to go now. I post later about EE server.

The more players from anywhere the better IMHO. And yes I hold a certain respect for esto players, I was around in the beginning until the time they were removed. And at times esto nations were........ scary! :-)

I have no authority here, and do not speak for pres or dogma or anyone who has any authority here but, i think that if you have suggestions you should plan them out, pro's' cons, why's and wait for examples on this server to use as reasons those changes should be implemented and then post them. Speculation is no ones friend.


Any nation playing any strat can win hands down. It takes teamwork within a nation and team work within the community. It is anyones game. How far will you go to win. I know alot of nations that would kill to win, litterally hence the name Nation Wars!

all strats can war, all strats create alliances, and strats can win.

Now if your playing as an individual, you may not be playing the right game?

Not sure any strat can win, but with the right connections it is anyones game.

nosejam
03-29-2008, 11:52
Any NATION can win, that's a given, have more players than the other nations (warring blurs this line a little) and as long as they are reasonably comptent they can win, but what about single state scores, will you ever see a farmer topping the records for networth?

I'm not suggesting anything as for one I'm not sure if you will or not and I have no idea what's in the code and even if I did I wouldn't be able to say what to change.

Hoebawt
03-29-2008, 18:32
Raf can win if he gets lvl 12 maggios :) anyone remember that?

CommunistCapitalism
03-29-2008, 20:04
neemkas i dont see any reason to change, i also tthink that you can win with the other things and the thing thats good about it is most palyers aren't playign for the #1 spot because they know they won't make it, some examples of great non-indy players were dolly and tnova

Hoebawt
03-30-2008, 14:34
yes.. and maggio countered it wit hte lvl 12 man boobs... a good move but not good enouhg :)

maggio u remmeber them good times

armagadon
05-01-2008, 19:41
I need your help to understand the formula to calculate a grab. I have the legend calculator and it is working perfectly.
My question is: If i am looking from the manual of Nation War, it is mentionned:
The amount of land you gain is shown by the formula (Thereland/Yourland)*(Thereland*.13) Then about 30% less for every hit in the last 36 hours.

This formula do not reflect the grab you will have if you hit a target. Some one could tell us the formula.

Thanks for your time.

pron
05-01-2008, 20:35
honestly, i don't play WoW to get top state. I play it because i have a good time with the community and having a say in a nation. I actually have a better time training people then actually playing the game to get top state.

I play to kill people :D

Minimus
05-01-2008, 21:28
I play to kill people :D

Mexican people?

Norrisville
05-01-2008, 22:13
I forget who said it, but a pure-indy nation has the advantage i believe. that's why i expect dak to finish #1 this set. a casher, if he/she plays well, has a chance to take it in the last week or so, but mostly indy has the advantage. farmers can jump into top 10 thre last few days, but i think its hard to get top top given there isn't any suiciding...
my expierience with casher is that i can't get into top 20 and have a chance at top 10 until VERY early in the set or VERY late..