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mechdestroyer
04-12-2008, 18:24
Do you think the government has the right to take money from people and give it to another person.

If yes, then if a poor person steals from a rich on, then that is moral?
Also where does the government get that power. The constitiution says nothing about that.

Charity is great but when it is forced it is immoral.


Also Q2:

Shouldnt everybody be treated equal under the law?

If you aswered yes, do you believe that our tax system where the rich pay more % and the poor pay less or no % is fair, or moral.

I would think that if you answered yes to the question then everyone should pay the same % no matter how much you make. everybody has the responsibility to give up part of their property to the nation.

And if you think that there should be different %s and that the poorest of the poor should pay no taxes. Where else would you agree that everyone shouldnt be treated equal under the law? where does it stop?

(Personally for 10% flat rate income tax, and reduce the government)

Firestorm7
04-12-2008, 18:55
Oh Mech you and your Ron Paul ideas...... and don't even talk about going back to the gold standard... here read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard :thumbdown:

Mr President
04-13-2008, 13:47
Do you think the government has the right to take money from people and give it to another person.

If yes, then if a poor person steals from a rich on, then that is moral?
Also where does the government get that power. The constitiution says nothing about that.

Charity is great but when it is forced it is immoral.


Also Q2:

Shouldnt everybody be treated equal under the law?

If you aswered yes, do you believe that our tax system where the rich pay more % and the poor pay less or no % is fair, or moral.

I would think that if you answered yes to the question then everyone should pay the same % no matter how much you make. everybody has the responsibility to give up part of their property to the nation.

And if you think that there should be different %s and that the poorest of the poor should pay no taxes. Where else would you agree that everyone shouldnt be treated equal under the law? where does it stop?

(Personally for 10% flat rate income tax, and reduce the government)

Though i agree with some of this, i think you also have to look further into it. For example, rich stars don't pay for anything. They are given free meals where ever they go, they are let in places for free, given things for free, free limos, the list goes on and on. All of this cause of who they are. So why can't a poor guy get all this?

The constitution says nothing about govt taking and giving our money to who they want. What happens is, we the people keep electing others into positions of power where they make there own rules and "we the people" don't hold them accountable. We shrug our shoulders and say oh well he is a typical politician and keep electing them back in. If we would hold these people accountable for what they say and do, then it would force all of them to follow the line they draw. That is if they want to get re-elected.

In America we are good at covering one bad mistake with another bad mistake. if only we would just admit it was a mistake and then find the proper fix for it. Then it's done and over. hey mistakes happen and sometimes you have to try something to see it's a mistake. I'm fine with that. but let's not cover it up with another bad mistake.

Norrisville
04-13-2008, 14:20
"In America we are good at covering one bad mistake with another bad mistake."

That's the perfect quote right there. It's like, you're inside the president's head... or something.

mechdestroyer
04-13-2008, 14:51
Though i agree with some of this, i think you also have to look further into it. For example, rich stars don't pay for anything. They are given free meals where ever they go, they are let in places for free, given things for free, free limos, the list goes on and on. All of this cause of who they are. So why can't a poor guy get all this?

The constitution says nothing about govt taking and giving our money to who they want. What happens is, we the people keep electing others into positions of power where they make there own rules and "we the people" don't hold them accountable. We shrug our shoulders and say oh well he is a typical politician and keep electing them back in. If we would hold these people accountable for what they say and do, then it would force all of them to follow the line they draw. That is if they want to get re-elected.

In America we are good at covering one bad mistake with another bad mistake. if only we would just admit it was a mistake and then find the proper fix for it. Then it's done and over. hey mistakes happen and sometimes you have to try something to see it's a mistake. I'm fine with that. but let's not cover it up with another bad mistake.


I definitely have to agree with you on this. But when people stars dont pay for their meals that is a private person giving them that meal not the government, that start should pay his taxes, every last drop just like everyone else. My main arugument still stands, should not everyone be treated equally under the law(government). Private citizens have every right to treat everyone else as different as they like.

And you kind of helped me by saying, " The constitution says nothing about govt taking and giving our money to who they want." Since it says nothing about it the federal government cannot do it. States can,but just like right now under the constitution taken in the right interpretation says that a state can impede on the right to free speech, it only says congress in the constitution, I think there should be an amendment saying states cannont do this either to a bunch of amendments.

Yes we need to keep our representatives in this country to what they say, and plus if they give money to whoever they want that is criminal and immoral. It is stealing through taxes. The government should only keep in its treasuries enough for its specified duties no more no less.

I think the bigger problem is that we are only afraid of the government and not the other way around,

"When the government fears the people, you have liberty; when the people fear the government, you have tyranny."
Thomas Jefferson

New thing here:
Why cannot a private citizen own a tank? or Rocket launchers. If the government becomes a tyranny how are the citizens supposed to overthrow our government and creat a new one with out proper arms to do so? we do have the right to keep and bear arms, dont we?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. "
-Declaration of independence

Now we have constitional amendment but when the congress does not allow those to pass or the states to call a constitutional convention. I still think we need to go by those means, but it is increasingly become apparent that the government is becoming less and less representative of the people. im not advacating revolution but that should always be a possiblity if the time and place come for one.

Sorry about it being so long, this is stuff that really interests me

Crimson Shadow
04-13-2008, 19:43
If you aswered yes, do you believe that our tax system where the rich pay more % and the poor pay less or no % is fair, or moral.

I would think that if you answered yes to the question then everyone should pay the same % no matter how much you make. everybody has the responsibility to give up part of their property to the nation.

And if you think that there should be different %s and that the poorest of the poor should pay no taxes. Where else would you agree that everyone shouldnt be treated equal under the law? where does it stop?

(Personally for 10% flat rate income tax, and reduce the government)

Here is my opinion on taxes (sorry if this was already posted in one of your previous posts...too long for me to read lol)

I think we should get rid of income tax, allow everyone to keep all the money they make, however raise the sales tax to about 15%. This way it taxes the people who really spend alot, and the poorer people who are struggling have extra money to spend on bills/food/etc.

Here is a situation - A rich person makes $200.000 a year, of this $40.000 is kept for taxes leaving him with still $160.000 to spend on what he pleases. A poor person makes $15.000 a year and $3.000 is kept for income, leaving him with only $12.000 to spend in a year.

Xavior
04-14-2008, 02:50
I am all for tax brackets.

Why?

Because I will never be in the highest one.

Firestorm7
04-14-2008, 02:55
Don't worry Mech when you get rich.... you just get your accountants to find loop holes for you to use and pay less taxes... That is the TRUE AMERICAN WAY!!!! :sneaky: :dblthumbup: :clap:

mechdestroyer
04-14-2008, 03:24
no no no see i want that away, you pay % of what you make no matter what you make, no loop holes you made 300k you pay 30k in taxes 10% is what im looking for.

There is no loopholes in that system, what you make you pay your % wherever it is. you get paid cash, you pay your 10%. You give to charity thanks for giving to charity doesnt distub the fact you made less money. simple fair. equal under the law.

Firestorm7
04-14-2008, 03:43
well Mech the one thing about our tax system right now is that so much can be written off. If you give money or items to charity, it can be written off. If you have expenses for your job, then you can write that off also.... Come on Dan you know when I get a job as a cop I can write off my handgun, body armour, and any clothing that I have to pull out of my pocket because I know I will go over my allowance given to me by the department.

So yea our tax system doesn't seem too fair, but it's been this way since it came into effect and if you just have 10% all around the rich really get richer and I have to put up with another Paris Hilton.. :angry:

mechdestroyer
04-15-2008, 04:43
sales tax is regressive tax, more on the poor than the rich, in the case pointed out where 200k a year and 15k a year, say it takes 15k to live, buying food and stuff, so the poor person pays tax on all of his 15k where the richer person only pays taxes on his 15k spent to live.

ok you right off your hand gun say tax is 10% you get a whole 10% off your hand gun. you pay 200 dollars you pay 20 bucks less in taxes so you still down 180. instead of properly funding the police so that you can buy your stuff straight out of the states pockets, since we all need protection should be the state buying your equipment not you.

Capitalist i would love to hear your thoughts on this stuff along with teh communist guy too.

plus i do believe that under our current system the rich are getting richer and the poor are staying poor. so what is your point?

my point is that everyone in the eyes of the government is an individual created equal. All the government should see is a human being, not a white person or a rich person. Equality under the law. We can have that . Equality between people is something the people must work at the government cant create that and never will be able to

Firestorm7
04-15-2008, 05:39
well the poor stay poor if they don't move for a higher education... and the rich will be rich unless a crash happens again which is doubtful under the the system now....


Now you are talking about sales tax??? Rich people will pay more on sales tax because they have money to spend.... Now if you talk income tax with brackets and all, yea having and equal tax rate would be different, but the problems are that the federal government will lose a lot of money from it's budget if that were to occur and the problem of inflation comes up... With all this extra money out there because it is not taxed, we could be looking at prices jumping and the poor will get hit even harder.

Now I know inflation will still occur Mech, but I would think having a flat tax system would increase the rates of inflation faster than they have in years past.

P.S. When you write off items on your taxes mech it comes off of your federal taxes, so you stand at a greater return.

mechdestroyer
04-15-2008, 12:34
Education is a state funded issue, instead of complaining to the feds like everybody does now aday , go and change your state, they are just taking care of you,

yeah rich have more to spend but if they dont spend it all then they arent taxed on whatever they dont spend, a poor and rich person would have to spend every last cent of their money for them to be taxed equally under sales tax.

now i dont know but when you right something off dont you just pay less taxes. So if your salary is 200 and you can right off 20 doallrs with 10% tax your salary then is like 180 so though you paid 20 bucks in taxes you would get 2 dollars back bc you should have only paid 18 then.

Still nobody has answered the fundamental question of shouldnt everyone be equal under the law.

If they shouldnt be in this case. Where else should 2 individuals who have not done a crime be treated differently.

Will
04-15-2008, 17:12
Tax the rich until they bleed. Anyone on more than 100k a year who would complain about a 50% tax rate should be shot.

Firestorm7
04-15-2008, 17:24
I'll complain all I want about being taxed 50% when I make 100k... I worked **** hard for my money and took the time get an education to get to that point... :thumbdown: :spam:

Will
04-15-2008, 17:27
50% tax rate is normal in the UK for people earning that kind of money.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:F6XnRbzHoB7tOM:http://clapso.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/stalin_color555.jpg

This man had many good ideas.

Firestorm7
04-15-2008, 17:29
Well I am from America and that's one reason I don't want to live in the UK.

Will
04-15-2008, 17:33
Business owners especially do not "work" for their money. The majority of work is done by the people they exploit, usually at minimum wage or in the case of illegal immigrants, even less. The US should have a far left, even communist government.

Firestorm7
04-15-2008, 17:43
Not all owners are like that... if you want workers you have to spend some bucks.... and yea illegal immigrants have taken jobs, but most people are not willing to work some of the jobs those guys do.... cutting grass, janitors, fast food.... Besides if your a small business owner then you are using mainly family members to work for you.

Will
04-15-2008, 17:44
ever ask yourself why people won't do those kinds of jobs?

Firestorm7
04-15-2008, 17:51
so your telling me that you want to have a career in landscaping, fast food, or a bottom of the food chain job? I don't, that's why I went to college and challenged myself. If peole are fine with where they are at then so be it.

Will
04-15-2008, 17:53
raise the wages and you'll get the people. minimum wage of about 12$/hour would be a good start.

Firestorm7
04-15-2008, 18:15
Why pay someone $12/h when the job does not deserve the pay increase... anyone can do those jobs that's why they are not paid that much... besides janitors can make a good living....

Xavior
04-16-2008, 21:43
Why pay someone $12/h when the job does not deserve the pay increase... anyone can do those jobs that's why they are not paid that much... besides janitors can make a good living....

Where would we be if there was no City cleanup crew? No one to take your trash, no one to sweep the snow, salt the roads?

Yes, they are the "lower" jobs that few want. But they are essential to any society. It starts from the ground up. To say they deserve to be poor is totally ignorant and elitist.

Try thinking of the overall picture, and not just for yourself. Because you are part of the overall picture.

mechdestroyer
04-17-2008, 03:48
All those jobs do get good money, they probably deserve more too.
I know why illegals or legal immagrants work fast food. I worked at mcdonalds for 2 summers, it is bc you really dont have to know english. Break can be signed, # are fine but that is why. Working the cooks and stuff not the drive through or cashier. Same for farm work and gardening. You really dont need to know english.

So im guessing for the 50% tax after 100k you are not for equal treatment under the law?

You would be fine with politicians getting away with crimes bc they are politicians. Probably not.

Then why whould differentiate here and there. Doesnt the man who worked or hired people to make the 100k deserve his money that he made, same as the man working for 20k or less or more.

We all agree that people have the right to own property and to use and do with that property what he wishes. Other than things that infringe on others rights and liberty. Right?

That every individual also has the responsibility to give up a portion of that property to go to defence of this country. And that every individual in the eyes of the law is equal.

I think the problem is too many people when they make it big is to go public and make it a corporation. Then all that matters is making profits at any cost. It is illegal for them not to try to make profits. Removes the people from the process.

Then corporations have rights. I say no way they should. Only individuals have rights. Not entities.

Zeonic
04-17-2008, 17:34
I'll complain all I want about being taxed 50% when I make 100k... I worked **** hard for my money and took the time get an education to get to that point... :thumbdown: :spam:

Have you considered the rising costs to get a good college education? Or the local situations where there simply isn't a good job market and $20-30k is the average for a family?

Nevermind also that minimum wage doesn't change with inflation.

ranger2112
04-17-2008, 17:58
first of all, how are we supposed to elect someone that will change things if NO ONE IS ON THE TICKET?? cant vote if their name isnt there.
Second, Will last time i checked communism failed and is now a bankrupt way of life..if u call living in China a life, then sure go ahead and immigrate
third, income taxes were implemented as a temp way for the govt to raise money that has never stopped. i am tired of working and not getting my full pay.
fourth, the BEST suggestion i have heard is make a Federal sales tax to go along with state and local and stay out of my paycheck. also paying SS should be voluntary...i have a nice 401k and other means of preparing for my older years.
lastly, a recession is coming, it cannot be avoided we must just weather the storm until things clear up. like the criminal oil companies stop raping us at the gas pump is a good start. i smoke and drink and would not blink if the increased taxes on those products instead of a necessity like petroleum

so there is my two cents worth. :)

Zeonic
04-17-2008, 19:34
Second, Will last time i checked communism failed and is now a bankrupt way of life..if u call living in China a life, then sure go ahead and immigrate

Except that, actual communism has never existed. Under Marxism, communism exists when class and state are dissolved. All countries claiming "communism" never went past the socialist stage and onto communism. They always reverted back to some form of socialism or capitalism.

Xavior
04-17-2008, 21:28
And just what is wrong with living in China?

You guys have been subject to too much western propaganda. Have you ever been to China? Ever lived there? Please do so before expressing your ignorant opinion.

Will
04-18-2008, 20:05
first of all, how are we supposed to elect someone that will change things if NO ONE IS ON THE TICKET?? cant vote if their name isnt there.
Second, Will last time i checked communism failed and is now a bankrupt way of life..if u call living in China a life, then sure go ahead and immigrate
third, income taxes were implemented as a temp way for the govt to raise money that has never stopped. i am tired of working and not getting my full pay.
fourth, the BEST suggestion i have heard is make a Federal sales tax to go along with state and local and stay out of my paycheck. also paying SS should be voluntary...i have a nice 401k and other means of preparing for my older years.
lastly, a recession is coming, it cannot be avoided we must just weather the storm until things clear up. like the criminal oil companies stop raping us at the gas pump is a good start. i smoke and drink and would not blink if the increased taxes on those products instead of a necessity like petroleum

so there is my two cents worth. :)

You think you have it bad with petrol prices? try living in the UK.

Petroleum cannot be truly considered a necessity for an individual. A decent public transport system would go a long way to reducing demand for it and in those cases where it is truly necessary the company should provide a tax deductible allowance for it. SS - Social Security I presume. Sure the rich may not need it but others certainly do. The person with 401k cannot reasonably complain about paying 10-20k to help people worse off. Tax rates in the US are obscenely low by European standards.

The US badly needs the following:

Improved public transport (Buses and Trains)
A true publicly funded national health service (from what I've heard medicaid is really crap)
progressive taxation to really force the rich to pay their way.

If George Washington and Thomas Jefferson could see the US today, they would wish they'd never rebelled in the first place.

mechdestroyer
04-19-2008, 04:35
They would be apalled because of the amount of liberty thas has been stripped away. They would be apalled bc no longer is the individual supposed to care about each other, but the grand ol government is. And they are supposed to take care of our every need.

They would be apalled because people are being treated differently under the law. They would be appalled bc their right to defend their property from intruders is being stripped away. They would be shocked and might die from a heart attack if a person who broke into someones home and then broke their leg could sue the peoples house they broke into and win. They are would be appalled bc The supreme law of the land means so little to so little people. They would be appalled because people are forced to do things with their property or not to do something with their property bc other people think it is wrong, not bc it infringes on anothers liberty.

They would be apalled bc thousands of innocent children die everyday from abortions. They would be appalled that Politicians are so corrupt. They would be appalled bc peoples right to express themselves through speech is being taken away. They would be horrified by the state our media and press is in. They would be angry that peoples property is being taken away without ever their chance to use it.

They would be happy with alot and stunned at the technological advances. They would be stunned at the state of our communities. Nobody knows the name of their neighbor. people no longer give acknowledgement to their fellow man when they walk down the street. They would wonder what in the world the government is doing in the affairs of individuals who like each other. Like why in the world you would ever need a license to get married. Why a minister isnt able to speak out or for politicians or laws.

I think they scream to get out of iraq, and afganistan and wonder why our troops are in germany defending a europe that for the most parts really doesnt like us and is more than capable of defending itself from big bad russia.

I know they would be stunned that a good made on the other side of the world is cheaper to buy and ship over than a good made in the same building as your business. And the government hasnt taxed all those goods china keeps sending over to us, but that most americans bay 30%. I dont know if they could speak about europe.


I think they would ask people what are you doing for fellow citizen and countryman. Not what is the government doing for you.

(sry for ranting here)

Zeonic
04-19-2008, 14:48
And they would be stunned that women and blacks have the right to vote. 'cause, ya know, they didn't support that doctrine. And some of them had slaves of their own.

All-in-all, who really cares what we think they would think? Doesn't mean they would think that way, because you're just portraying what you think onto them.