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Mr President
09-05-2007, 09:31
If everyone was allowed to carry a gun anywhere they go, do you think
think crime would go up or down?

Spetznaz_GRU
09-05-2007, 09:33
Try to remember what about any western movie is about. You'll get the answer yourself.

Warl0rd
09-05-2007, 10:06
Why simply guns and not shotguns, machine guns, grenades, C4 or rocket launchers? How about letting ppl ride tanks instead of cars. Or even have nukes at home. The principle is the same, so do you still think that would work?

ranger2112
09-05-2007, 10:20
SIMPLE. an armed society is a polite society. the movies about the "wild west" are just dramatizations. period. mostly based on the old dime store novel writers trying to make it more interesting for readers and people to move out west.

Hamlet
09-05-2007, 11:14
SIMPLE. an armed society is a polite society. [..]

...and ppl in a society without or limited access to guns can't be polite?

ranger2112
09-05-2007, 11:19
yes, they can. however, when u do not allow free Americans to carry their weapons, then the only armed people will be criminals. just a fact. if i want to break into a home, i will think less of it in an area that allows handgun ownership than one that does not.

Warl0rd
09-05-2007, 11:44
Your missing something: Police force will also carry guns! They are the ones who have the job to protect you! And they are trained and payed for it.

Why should you be able to have a gun but not a machine gun, a pack of fragmentation grenades or a rocket launcher? And why shouldn't you be able to drive a tank so ppl don't bump into your ride and damage the paint job?

Guns were important back in wild wild west days, when selvages attacked caravans and stuff like that, issues were resolved in duels at sunset, guns were indeed needed and important. But alot of time as passed since then, its time to adapt the laws to the current time.

ranger2112
09-05-2007, 12:10
police are there, however they are undermanned, underpaid and frankly underappreciated.

ranger2112
09-05-2007, 12:15
Guns were important back in wild wild west days, when selvages attacked caravans and stuff like that, issues were resolved in duels at sunset, guns were indeed needed and important. But alot of time as passed since then, its time to adapt the laws to the current time.

guns, then and now, are for personal protection. too many have fought and died for my freedoms for some tree-hugging, head-in-the sand pacifist to take my right to bear arms.

Warl0rd
09-05-2007, 12:19
again, then why can't you use a machine guns for personal protection? or land mines around your yard? put 500.000 volts in you door knob, electrify your fences, etc that would be more effective don't you think? why guns and not the rest? what makes then suitable for protection?

ranger2112
09-05-2007, 12:28
hmmm, Warlord, u have given me some excellent ideas. thx. :dblthumbup:

Mr President
09-05-2007, 13:57
again, then why can't you use a machine guns for personal protection? or land mines around your yard? put 500.000 volts in you door knob, electrify your fences, etc that would be more effective don't you think? why guns and not the rest? what makes then suitable for protection?

Um other than the land mines in the yard, you can use the rest :dblthumbup:

i strongly suggest you remember to turn off the 500,000 volt door knob
before coming home from a night out on the town... might ruin your evening
lol..

Mr President
09-05-2007, 13:59
Try to remember what about any western movie is about. You'll get the answer yourself.


The only truth to a western movie is how lonely a life the cowboy actually
lead.

lol think about it, with all the real time TV shows now, how interesting would
it be if a camera crew followed around a cowboy back in those days?

they added all the gunfights so people would watch the show..

ranger2112
09-05-2007, 14:55
exactly.

Hamlet
09-05-2007, 17:07
The need to be armed is clearly context dependent. Had I been born with the right to US citizenship, then I might have bought some myself...who knows. I don't think I would consider myself "a free man", if I needed a Browning to obtain a sense of security in my own home/country. However, if the alternative is chronic paranoia because everybody else are armed, then it becomes a question of choosing the lesser evil, which in this case would be to get armed asap.

Imo the paradox can only be resolved by reducing crime, which in turn is a matter of reducing social problems.

Crimson Shadow
09-05-2007, 17:37
police are there, however they are undermanned, underpaid and frankly underappreciated.

1000% agree with this statement.

And everyone can carry guns, the problem is most do it illegally by not obtaining a license.

But the MAJOR problem does not lie in the carrier of the gun, but the seller of the gun. Not asking for proper certification and not doing background checks is why we have such a problem in America.

If we wanted to reduce crime, then gun dealers need to be targeted not just the criminals.

Spetznaz_GRU
09-05-2007, 17:44
What a crap. It was called the wild west because of it being peaceful? And the guns that were used killing the Indians were to pacify them? Or was killing the indians the same as going into Iraq? It's such ignorant nonsense saying that it was all that happened in movies wasn't real. There were bounties on people's heads. People had duels and ****. Don't tell me that this only happened in movies.

Warl0rd
09-05-2007, 17:55
1000% agree with this statement.

And everyone can carry guns, the problem is most do it illegally by not obtaining a license.

But the MAJOR problem does not lie in the carrier of the gun, but the seller of the gun. Not asking for proper certification and not doing background checks is why we have such a problem in America.

If we wanted to reduce crime, then gun dealers need to be targeted not just the criminals.Getting hands in a illegal gun is easier in a country that sells millions of guns every year then in a country that just sells hundreds. Here you can't get a personal gun unless you work for the force or as a security. And if you want to buy guns for hutting you need a license, that implies making a teoric test (about gun calibers, hunting seasons calendar, how to safely carry a riffle, etc). Of course there are illegal guns used by criminal, but i'm sure not as much as in US, i can say I never saw anyone carry a gun other then a policeman or a military on service. Would i feel more safety if i carried a gun around, yes, does that means i should do it, no.

ranger2112
09-05-2007, 18:00
seems like a shortage of black market guns. hmm might be a gold mine there. lmao

Missionary
09-05-2007, 19:12
some crime will go down, i mean i would asume muggins would go down if everyone had a gun haha.

Warl0rd
09-05-2007, 19:53
how about the number of kills for a simple parking spot? or by stealing you a cab? i'm surethe number of kills by firearms would jump if everyone carried one with him.

ranger2112
09-05-2007, 20:12
kinda helps with that over-population issue we are having huh. but seriously...if i know everyone is armed i wont be stealing parking spaces or cabs..id be like go ahead. who wants to die for a cab. people are rude today because they can. an armed society is a POLITE society


An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein

Missionary
09-05-2007, 20:16
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein

that is very harsh lol. but i surpose there is some sort of logic behind that statement.

ranger2112
09-05-2007, 20:17
life is a harsh mistress

Warl0rd
09-05-2007, 20:24
if i know everyone is armed i wont be stealing parking spaces or cabs..id be like go ahead. who wants to die for a cab. people are rude today because they can.If ppl do that just because their life isn't in risk then its a matter of lack of education and not knowing how to live in society. giving away guns won't fix that.:glare:

Mr President
09-05-2007, 20:51
What a crap. It was called the wild west because of it being peaceful? And the guns that were used killing the Indians were to pacify them? Or was killing the indians the same as going into Iraq? It's such ignorant nonsense saying that it was all that happened in movies wasn't real. There were bounties on people's heads. People had duels and ****. Don't tell me that this only happened in movies.


lol ignorant nonsense.... i love todays generation.. just cause they see it on
TV then it must be true.

anyway, i never said it didn't happen, i said that in westerns more gun
fights were added to make the movie more interesting.. The average
man in the old west was not a gun fighter.. It's like today, you have your
normal and not so normal.

The wild west was not as bad as you think it was. More crime happens
in one day in todays world then 1 yr total in that time.

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 05:36
lol ignorant nonsense.... i love todays generation.. just cause they see it on
TV then it must be true.

anyway, i never said it didn't happen, i said that in westerns more gun
fights were added to make the movie more interesting.. The average
man in the old west was not a gun fighter.. It's like today, you have your
normal and not so normal.

The wild west was not as bad as you think it was. More crime happens
in one day in todays world then 1 yr total in that time.Todays generation. Mr. P, you're clearly not one of the smartest or most mature one around, so don't give me that all grown up crap you're giving right now. I never said that people in the wild west were gunfighters. I'm not a professional boxer, but when you taunt me, I'll kick your *** (or at least try so). Carrying a gun would make it more easy for me to kill you than with my fists. Because out on the streets if I start kicking the **** out of you, in time some people would try to stop me, or have the cops arrive. Shooting you would take 1 second and give me plenty of time to run away. And what makes you think that you know any more about the old (wild) west than I do? Those are just ignorant assumptions. I've always been very much in to history and I found the USA history really interesting. From the unsanctioned killing of the Indians and stealing their land to the revolution and the civil war. So I don't judge in singly by Clint's and John's appearances in western movies. You just don't have any good facts, which is why you start talking crap about the generation and such, which has absolutely nothing to do with the matter we're discussing here. It was called the WILD WEST. Not for no reason. People had bounties on their heads. And if somebody stole your horse, you just went up to him and shot him. I don't think that people deserve to be shot for stealing. And if you were wrong, you would shoot the wrong person. Great laws man. Let's make it even better and go back to the stone age, where the strongest automatically becomes the leader. Carrying guns in a civil society is going backwards. Rather make police tougher and punishment more severe. How about some old lady, being scared as **** shooting her own son by accident, because he decided to come by at night.

Oh, the last thing you posted makes you look even more stupid. Dude, do you know that in the last 90 years USA went from 100 mill to 300 mill inhabitants? Back then you didn't even have the laws that made it impossible for Chinese to immigrate to the USA. Back then there were so little people especially in the west. The East was already pretty much occupied, not as much as now ofcourse, but still. The west was a vast space of crazy cowboys that drank moonshine.

Mr President
09-06-2007, 09:15
dude you have a serious attitude issue and i'm growing tired of it. Why is
it that you can't handle a debate without throwing stones? Only thing i
said was Younger generation.. Wow that was soooo hurtful.. I hope you
didn't cry long.

My posts make me look stupid? lol ok! Do you re-read any of yours?

I make one simple comment on generations and you tell me i don't
have any facts and that it has nothing to do with what we are talking
about, but yet you go on and on about stone age and clint and john
ect ect.. lol

Of course there would be less crime back then, um lets see there were
lots of less people. Have you not figured out yet that i'm only making
suggestions to keep the debate going?

Why do you think i made this post in the first place!

And seeing for the past 14yrs was a cop i think i have first hand
knowledge of gun control.. I see it each day.. Just cause i made this
subject does not mean i support it. I wanted an interesting topic. You
are the only one who can't shut his mouth when it comes to bashing
people.. I'm sick of seeing how you are so right and everyone else is
so wrong and stupid...

oh and btw.. your off about 100mil inhabitants.. But i'm sure you already
knew that cause you are soooo smart :-)

Missionary
09-06-2007, 09:27
And what makes you think that you know any more about the old (wild) west than I do?

because thats when Mr.P was in his prime :) lol

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 09:37
dude you have a serious attitude issue and i'm growing tired of it. Why is
it that you can't handle a debate without throwing stones? Only thing i
said was Younger generation.. Wow that was soooo hurtful.. I hope you
didn't cry long.

My posts make me look stupid? lol ok! Do you re-read any of yours?

I make one simple comment on generations and you tell me i don't
have any facts and that it has nothing to do with what we are talking
about, but yet you go on and on about stone age and clint and john
ect ect.. lol

Of course there would be less crime back then, um lets see there were
lots of less people. Have you not figured out yet that i'm only making
suggestions to keep the debate going?

Why do you think i made this post in the first place!

And seeing for the past 14yrs was a cop i think i have first hand
knowledge of gun control.. I see it each day.. Just cause i made this
subject does not mean i support it. I wanted an interesting topic. You
are the only one who can't shut his mouth when it comes to bashing
people.. I'm sick of seeing how you are so right and everyone else is
so wrong and stupid...

oh and btw.. your off about 100mil inhabitants.. But I'm sure you already
knew that cause you are soooo smart :-)
No I'm not off. At least that's what the Dutch news reported, but I'm sure that you know your facts better than the news reporters. If you can't stand my bashing, than why are you saying **** like I'm crying and yada yada. You're the one crying. I'm just having a debate with you and you come with ignorant arguments which have no historical truth in them. Just saying thing like: todays generation just believes the movies straight on. Now if this wasn't
meant like I'm the todays generation and I blindly follow Hollywood's facts. Hollywood will pervert any historical fact out there just to make the hero have sex, beat up villains and end the movie with a smash or open end which makes you wanna cry.

Ok, let's start over. Seeing as this is one of the only interesting threads where people really want to debate.

You can't deny the wild west was far less civilized than the east. Nowadays USA is more civilized than it was back then, because there are all kind of laws concerning guns. But for instance the Netherlands who have no gun for civilians, are even further civilized. Well at least IMO. Same goes for England and France and Germany (just to name 3 other big West Countries). So would it be really that hard for Americans to abolish guns? Or is it just something patriotic and something to do with your American image that you guys want to keep?

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 09:38
because thats when Mr.P was in his prime :) lol
I wasn't talking about the Jurassic age. lol

Mr President
09-06-2007, 09:47
You can't deny the wild west was far less civilized than the east. Nowadays USA is more civilized than it was back then, because there are all kind of laws concerning guns. But for instance the Netherlands who have no gun for civilians, are even further civilized. Well at least IMO. Same goes for England and France and Germany (just to name 3 other big West Countries). So would it be really that hard for Americans to abolish guns? Or is it just something patriotic and something to do with your American image that you guys want to keep?

No i won't deny that it was far less civilized back then. Things were a huge
mess and people settled things with guns and not courts? (times when that
might not be a bad thing lol)

American don't like things taken away from them. We like to do all the
taking lol. So when people try to take our guns, we don't like it. Will there
be a day that all pistols in the US be banned? i'm sure you'll see it.

Could we live without guns, yea we could.

You say the Netherlands don't have guns. What is the crime rate there? Do
the criminals have guns?

If the US abolished guns the only ones who would have them would be
the criminals.

Warl0rd
09-06-2007, 09:49
Asking for US to stop guns is like asking the auto industry to stop using gasoline.

There are huge lobbys in US: Guns, Alcoholl, Tobacoo

You can't stop any of them.

PS: Theres a funny film about it: Thank You for Smoking (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427944/)

Warl0rd
09-06-2007, 09:53
You say the Netherlands don't have guns. What is the crime rate there? Do
the criminals have guns? I'm sure its lower then US. And the number of death by firearms can't even be compared.


If the US abolished guns the only ones who would have them would be
the criminals.Your the second guy telling this, i guess its a problem with US citizens! they forget that policeman also have guns, and its their job to make sure your safe.

Missionary
09-06-2007, 09:55
guns aint needed at all, why not like things being taken off of you? i mean, how often do you actually use them, and if you do where?

and gun crime is on the rise in the UK, a 11 year old lad was shot dead in liverpool the other day after football (YES FOOTBALL NOT SOCCER) training.

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 10:07
No i won't deny that it was far less civilized back then. Things were a huge
mess and people settled things with guns and not courts? (times when that
might not be a bad thing lol)

American don't like things taken away from them. We like to do all the
taking lol. So when people try to take our guns, we don't like it. Will there
be a day that all pistols in the US be banned? i'm sure you'll see it.

Could we live without guns, yea we could.

You say the Netherlands don't have guns. What is the crime rate there? Do
the criminals have guns?

If the US abolished guns the only ones who would have them would be
the criminals.
1) So you agree that the Wild West wasn't a civilized time?

2) Americans don't like when something is taken from them, but they like to take? Who do you think you are? A holy nation? You have no more right to do anything than for instance Bangladesh.

3) My point being

4) Not sure, so I won't say **** I don't know, but I can tell you that my girlfriend can walk at night and nothing will happen. Ofcourse things happen occasionally, but let's say that the Netherlands have 16m inhabitans and USA 300m. Just to make it easier to count, let's make NL 15m. wiki murder rate source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rate#2000s)USA has a 5.9 and Netherlands have 0.97. This is 6.08 times the rate in the Netherlands. My point has been proven. I'm sorry to pull out wiki on this one, but even if they messed up and the rate is different then still I don't think that it's that big of a difference.

5) How about the pigs? They have guns don't they? And the American ones seem pretty trigger happy if you ask me.


Asking for US to stop guns is like asking the auto industry to stop using gasoline.

There are huge lobbys in US: Guns, Alcoholl, Tobacoo

You can't stop any of them.

PS: Theres a funny film about it: Thank You for Smoking (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427944/)
Smoking is something different. You can smoke without harming non-smokers. You just have laws that smokers can't smoke in public places. Gasoline will be replaced, it's just a matter of time. Guns? Well it's up to the people of the USA if they're willing to give their ignorance up.

Mr President
09-06-2007, 10:10
guns aint needed at all, why not like things being taken off of you? i mean, how often do you actually use them, and if you do where?

and gun crime is on the rise in the UK, a 11 year old lad was shot dead in liverpool the other day after football (YES FOOTBALL NOT SOCCER) training.


let me ask this. In prisons there are no guns (except for the guards) but
yet the murder rate in a US prison is sky high.. So if the nation didn't
have guns, why do you think the rate would go down? yes it would be
harder to kill someone, but a knife in the heart kills pretty quickly.

Warl0rd
09-06-2007, 10:11
American don't like things taken away from them. We like to do all the
taking lol.You guys don't seem much worried with other freedom rights, just look at the stupid copyright laws you have. Not to mention a full bunch of laws that were taken in place after 9-11, US citizens lost many freedom rights, they are now controlled by the government.

Warl0rd
09-06-2007, 10:13
let me ask this. In prisons there are no guns (except for the guards) but
yet the murder rate in a US prison is sky high.. So if the nation didn't
have guns, why do you think the rate would go down? yes it would be
harder to kill someone, but a knife in the heart kills pretty quickly.Yes i'm sure if a few months ago that kid on school had a knive instead of guns he would also killed the same amount of students he did.

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 10:14
let me ask this. In prisons there are no guns (except for the guards) but
yet the murder rate in a US prison is sky high.. So if the nation didn't
have guns, why do you think the rate would go down? yes it would be
harder to kill someone, but a knife in the heart kills pretty quickly.
Well look at the system of your jails. Here in the Netherlands there are no gangs in jails like the Aryan Brotherhood. Murders in jails happen everywhere, probably even in Wonderland. The thing is that some countries have proper jail systems and some don't. Russia's jail system is crap as it gets. But your system is not much better. And you guys are the West, or were you? Because slowly the real west is turning it's back on you and your conservative values and morals. Now why would that be?

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 10:15
Yes i'm sure if a few months ago that kid on school had a knive instead of guns he would also killed the same amount of students he did.
And making pictures of you holding a knife isn't that cool like doing the same with the gun.

Mr President
09-06-2007, 10:15
1) So you agree that the Wild West wasn't a civilized time?

2) Americans don't like when something is taken from them, but they like to take? Who do you think you are? A holy nation? You have no more right to do anything than for instance Bangladesh.

3) My point being

4) Not sure, so I won't say **** I don't know, but I can tell you that my girlfriend can walk at night and nothing will happen. Ofcourse things happen occasionally, but let's say that the Netherlands have 16m inhabitans and USA 300m. Just to make it easier to count, let's make NL 15m. wiki murder rate source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rate#2000s)USA has a 5.9 and Netherlands have 0.97. This is 6.08 times the rate in the Netherlands. My point has been proven. I'm sorry to pull out wiki on this one, but even if they messed up and the rate is different then still I don't think that it's that big of a difference.

5) How about the pigs? They have guns don't they? And the American ones seem pretty trigger happy if you ask me.


Smoking is something different. You can smoke without harming non-smokers. You just have laws that smokers can't smoke in public places. Gasoline will be replaced, it's just a matter of time. Guns? Well it's up to the people of the USA if they're willing to give their ignorance up.


1) i never said it was civilized. I said that movies added more gunfights to
make the movie interesting and that i don't think the west was as bad as
we like to think it was. Was it bad? Yes.. but it was more than just gunfights that made it the wild west.

2) um never said i agree with it. I am going by what history proves.

3,4) i'll skip

5) Pigs? I'll assume this is your intelligent way of talking about a policeman.
Yes they have guns. Trigger happy? i'm not sure on that. I have yet to
meet one cop who looks forward to the day he has top pull his gun and
fire on anyone.

I would like to take you out and let you see some of the things we see
everyday.. And then maybe you will have a little more respect.. Of course
you would call us pigs till someone was trying to kill you, then who would
you call for.. typical!!!

Mr President
09-06-2007, 10:21
Y US citizens lost many freedom rights, they are now controlled by the government.

can't agree with you more. People just seem to look the other way and
the govt takes more and more.. In todays life the Govt says hey you go
live your life, we will take of everything for you.. and we buy it!



Well look at the system of your jails. Here in the Netherlands there are no gangs in jails like the Aryan Brotherhood. Murders in jails happen everywhere, probably even in Wonderland. The thing is that some countries have proper jail systems and some don't. Russia's jail system is crap as it gets. But your system is not much better. And you guys are the West, or were you? Because slowly the real west is turning it's back on you and your conservative values and morals. Now why would that be?

something i can agree with.. US prisons are total crap.

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 10:21
Well look at the system of your jails. Here in the Netherlands there are no gangs in jails like the Aryan Brotherhood. Murders in jails happen everywhere, probably even in Wonderland. The thing is that some countries have proper jail systems and some don't. Russia's jail system is crap as it gets. But your system is not much better. And you guys are the West, or were you? Because slowly the real west is turning it's back on you and your conservative values and morals. Now why would that be?


our jail and crime issue is different than yours for many reasons. i want to address one...the aryan brotherhood one. we ARE the melting pot. our country has the largest diversity of races, creeds and religions that any other one. so there is a much greater chance of clashing and therefore crime. it is inevitable.

Mr President
09-06-2007, 10:22
our jail and crime issue is different than yours for many reasons. i want to address one...the aryan brotherhood one. we ARE the melting pot. our country has the largest diversity of races, creeds and religions that any other one. so there is a much greater chance of clashing and therefore crime. it is inevitable.


Finally some help! lol

good point Ranger. I didn't think of that.

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 10:24
Pigs, cops pick one from this list. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_slang_terms_for_police_officers)It's not about how I call them. I have never EVER needed a police officerto intervene in my business. I would never even think of going to them. We always solve our problems ourselves. Because we'd get done ourselves. And if I want them to help me, it will always take ages before the'd have the job done, that I can do myself pretty quickly.

Warl0rd
09-06-2007, 10:24
Oh then i'm sure allowing all those races, creeds and religions to carry guns with them makes them treat each others in a more polite way lol

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 10:27
doh, the point is they ALREADY do. the criminal element has a nice stockpile, all i want is for the HONEST citizen to have the right to be armed as well so that there is a level playing field. bad guys guns-good guys kitchen utensils...hmm thats fair....NOT!!!!!!!!!

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 10:27
our jail and crime issue is different than yours for many reasons. i want to address one...the aryan brotherhood one. we ARE the melting pot. our country has the largest diversity of races, creeds and religions that any other one. so there is a much greater chance of clashing and therefore crime. it is inevitable.

Finally some help! lol

good point Ranger. I didn't think of that.
Very bad point as a matter of fact, because you people obviously never visited the Netherlands. The Netherlands isn't less cultural diverse than the USA. You might assume this, because USA is the land of the immigrants. The Netherlands did the same, not for a long timespan as the USA though. After the second world war they let people from all over the world in to do the jobs that the Dutch people didn't want to do themselves. So that Aryan Brotherhood example and the diversity argument aren't of any good.

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 10:30
doh, the point is they ALREADY do. the criminal element has a nice stockpile, all i want is for the HONEST citizen to have the right to be armed as well so that there is a level playing field. bad guys guns-good guys kitchen utensils...hmm thats fair....NOT!!!!!!!!!
Great argument. I thought USA was based on the Christian religion. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth is from the old testimony. Maybe this is why USA loves Jews.

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 10:33
based, yes...however originally on Puritan rules which are much stricter than today. been awhile since a witch was burned...

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 10:39
based, yes...however originally on Puritan rules which are much stricter than today. been awhile since a witch was burned...
Oh, and we should thank the American generosity for that? At least random women aren't burnt. Hallelujah. You guys seem to compare yourself to those who are worse. Try to aim at those who have things a lot better than you. Try the Netherlands. USA used to be a big brother to the west. You guys were the fair country, but now everybody is turning it's back on you. I think it's a shame. Don't fight violence with violence. That's my motto and as everybody on this forum knows, nobody wants to be like me. lol

Mr President
09-06-2007, 10:46
According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Uniform Crime Reports (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm),--
The violent crime rate increased 1.3% from 2004 to 2005. From 1996 to 2005 the rate fell 26.3%

seems odd that a nation with such poor gun control, the rate went down.

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 10:51
well P thats because we kept killing each other until there were no one left to kill:thumbup:

Warl0rd
09-06-2007, 10:54
According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Uniform Crime Reports (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm),--
The violent crime rate increased 1.3% from 2004 to 2005. From 1996 to 2005 the rate fell 26.3%

seems odd that a nation with such poor gun control, the rate went down.Then quote the rest:

However, the overall rate of crimes committed with firearms increased from 1.4 crimes for every 1,000 persons age 12 or older in 2004 to 2.0 crimes per 1,000 in 2005

Mr President
09-06-2007, 10:55
You guys seem to compare yourself to those who are worse. Try to aim at those who have things a lot better than you. Try the Netherlands. USA used to be a big brother to the west. You guys were the fair country, but now everybody is turning it's back on you. I think it's a shame. Don't fight violence with violence. That's my motto and as everybody on this forum knows, nobody wants to be like me. lol

We don't compare ourselves to anyone. Everyone else compares themselves
to us. That is why people say what we have is so bad and how bad we
are and how great you all have it.. If thats the case then why don't you
leave us alone? If you guys have it so great then why would you care
how bad we have it here?

I think it's funny when Americans get back from traveling i always hear
how pretty foreign country's are ect ect ect but when asked if they would
like to live there they say no way, we have it much better here.. But yet
you people say we don't.. lol oh well to each his own i guess..

The reason everyone loved us before was cause we never did anything
to fight back. Look at the first attack on the towers, what did we do?
we sent a few missiles and blew up some empty training camps.. WoW
watch out!

Now America fights back some and people don't like it. You all want us to
sit here and take everything and send money when disaster strikes or
food when your crop is destroyed or send troops when your country is invaded.

People want a passive America, but when she isn't that is when the world
turns there back.. Perhaps America needs to turn it's back on a few of
you.

Mr President
09-06-2007, 10:56
Then quote the rest:

However, the overall rate of crimes committed with firearms increased from 1.4 crimes for every 1,000 persons age 12 or older in 2004 to 2.0 crimes per 1,000 in 2005


That would be NYC lol

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 10:57
exactly. gun crime did go up a smidge, however overall crime was down. guns in the hands of civilians fixed that. THOSE CRIMES BY HANDGUNS were by criminals not citizens. Gun control takes the guns away from the honest man, not the criminal. they will keep theirs. i will be ****ed if they take mine and leave me defenseless. to quote. 'the best offense is a good defense" if i know that breaking into your home i will get shot because you have a gun i will think about it longer, however if i know that no citizens are armed...it will be a free for all. party baby.

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 10:58
According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Uniform Crime Reports (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm),--
The violent crime rate increased 1.3% from 2004 to 2005. From 1996 to 2005 the rate fell 26.3%

seems odd that a nation with such poor gun control, the rate went down.
1993-2001. The Democrats are in charge. A democrat President Bill clinton is the USA president. Economy of the USA is becoming better. After 3 years of Bill, the nation has gained more wealth, thus people need less to steal. As soon as Bush comes into the office, you see the economy drop as quick as an iron statue of Saddam Houssein after the "liberation" of Iraq. It takes Bush 3 years to ruin all the credit that Clinton has built up. And then poverty kicks in as it hasn't been for 7 years. And people start doing more crime again. Not saying this is the main reason, not saying it ain't. Just showing you what i'm thinking and why. Nothing is worse than a debate without arguments.

Mr President
09-06-2007, 11:03
lol i started this topic just to have something interesting to talk about..
looks like it worked. Do i think that everyone should have guns? Oh heck
no.. Do i think crime would go down, lol NO! It would make it worse..
There are some people in this country who shouldn't even own a TV
let alone a gun ..

Big Cities are what drive the crime rate. You can't stick 11mil people from
different races and backgrounds together and not expect crime...

Does America have it's problems.. Why yes we do. But so does your countries. But yet how many times do you see an American start bashing your country? Hardly ever see it. Why is this, cause we are not jealous of your way of life. We like ours and we would like to keep it. And if you like yours then great, we don't try to talk you out of it.

Warl0rd
09-06-2007, 11:03
Look at the first attack on the towers, what did we do?
we sent a few missiles and blew up some empty training camps.. WoW
watch out!Let me remind you of putting Israel in middle east, supporting bin laden in the past, iraq vs iran, i can keep going if you want...

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 11:07
We don't compare ourselves to anyone. Everyone else compares themselves
to us. That is why people say what we have is so bad and how bad we
are and how great you all have it.. If thats the case then why don't you
leave us alone? If you guys have it so great then why would you care
how bad we have it here?We're having a discussion here, remember? Start one about Russia and we'll discuss our (Russian) bad habbits, ok? Nobody compares themselves to you, unless we want to see how much better we (the Dutch) got it here.



I think it's funny when Americans get back from traveling i always hear
how pretty foreign country's are ect ect ect but when asked if they would
like to live there they say no way, we have it much better here.. But yet
you people say we don't.. lol oh well to each his own i guess..That's funny, those Americans that I've spoken to, dream to live here, but quite frankly, when you're old enough and you have your own place and family and friends, it's not that easy to take your stuff and leave.



The reason everyone loved us before was cause we never did anything
to fight back. Look at the first attack on the towers, what did we do?
we sent a few missiles and blew up some empty training camps.. WoW
watch out! Not true. In the second world war you did something. Of course because you got attacked yourselves, but you weren't passive. You helped the Bosnians. You helped Quwait. You've always supported Israel. You helped Souther-Korea. You tried to help the people of Vietnam. Don't be hard on yourself. USA has done some good things too. I'm no hypocrite.


Now America fights back some and people don't like it. You all want us to sit here and take everything and send money when disaster strikes or food when your crop is destroyed or send troops when your country is invaded. Ok, don't do anything. Just keep your troops and food and all of that, use it for your own. Use your troops for the next Katrina, your food for the poor that you have in the USA and money to get out of the worst dept you ever had. Your country seems to throw around things which it actually lacks for itself.



People want a passive America, but when she isn't that is when the world
turns there back.. Perhaps America needs to turn it's back on a few of
you.Turn your back on Europe. Be our guests. Like we would care. Soon Europe will be united and strong enough to handle it's own things and won't need to kiss *** the States. Then, you'll find yourself alone. Come now, talk tough like you won't care. But you will. And you will cry till your enemies unite and take you down. It will probably start with Israel, then USA and then
Europe will have to fight for it's survival.

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 11:07
Let me remind you of putting Israel in middle east, supporting bin laden in the past, iraq vs iran, i can keep going if you want...
How about Afghanistan?

Mr President
09-06-2007, 11:11
1993-2001. The Democrats are in charge. A democrat President Bill clinton is the USA president. Economy of the USA is becoming better. After 3 years of Bill, the nation has gained more wealth, thus people need less to steal. As soon as Bush comes into the office, you see the economy drop as quick as an iron statue of Saddam Houssein after the "liberation" of Iraq. It takes Bush 3 years to ruin all the credit that Clinton has built up. And then poverty kicks in as it hasn't been for 7 years. And people start doing more crime again. Not saying this is the main reason, not saying it ain't. Just showing you what i'm thinking and why. Nothing is worse than a debate without arguments.


I can see where you would think this.. BUT........ Clinton was a poster boy
for President. He was more concerned about his image then what happens
to his country. His country was attacked, he didn't do anything. he sent
troops into somalia without the proper equipment, he 100% embarrassed
the United States Govt and image of the White House. He was the impeached and most of all sat on national TV and lied straight to my face when he said he did not have sexual relations with that girl!

The US economy is stronger now than it was with Clinton. The same rich
people are still getting rich and the poor remain poor. That will never change with any President. People make there own changes when it comes
to wealth.

Now something that i will say, i was born in 1973. President Reagan was
the first President i actually remember. He came in 1980..
From 1980- Present, there has been a Bush or a Clinton in the White House.
For 27 Yrs this country has been ruled pretty much by the same people.. I think it's time for a change. But this is another debate lol.. i just wanted
to throw that in.

Warl0rd
09-06-2007, 11:13
How about Afghanistan?thats either in the "supporting bin laden in the past" or in the "i can keep going if you want..." part :P

Mr President
09-06-2007, 11:13
Let me remind you of putting Israel in middle east, supporting bin laden in the past, iraq vs iran, i can keep going if you want...

oh i agree.. i think it's funny how we happen to support people when we
need something..

but this is not just an american trait. Every country does it to us.. still to
this day. People don't like us, but the don't mind getting money from us..
so in the end, what is the difference?

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 11:14
1993-2001. The Democrats are in charge. A democrat President Bill clinton is the USA president. Economy of the USA is becoming better. After 3 years of Bill, the nation has gained more wealth, thus people need less to steal. As soon as Bush comes into the office, you see the economy drop as quick as an iron statue of Saddam Houssein after the "liberation" of Iraq. It takes Bush 3 years to ruin all the credit that Clinton has built up. And then poverty kicks in as it hasn't been for 7 years. And people start doing more crime again. Not saying this is the main reason, not saying it ain't. Just showing you what i'm thinking and why. Nothing is worse than a debate without arguments.



ok first of all.. having Clinton in office did nothing. things do not happen overnight. any trend takes time. the trend began to swing in the positive when a Republican came into office. Ronald Reagan.

Mr President
09-06-2007, 11:17
Ok, don't do anything. Just keep your troops and food and all of that, use it for your own. Use your troops for the next Katrina, your food for the poor that you have in the USA and money to get out of the worst dept you ever had. Your country seems to throw around things which it actually lacks for itself.


Turn your back on Europe. Be our guests. Like we would care. Soon Europe will be united and strong enough to handle it's own things and won't need to kiss *** the States. Then, you'll find yourself alone. Come now, talk tough like you won't care. But you will. And you will cry till your enemies unite and take you down. It will probably start with Israel, then USA and then
Europe will have to fight for it's survival.


it is funny isn't it? All this food and money we can send around the world
all the time, but yet look how many homeless and hungry people we have
here in the states... it's a shame!


i agree, we would be hurting if we turned our back.

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 11:19
ok, i am not saying we are these angels here who only help people for the right reasons and we did nothing wrong. that is furthest from the truth. however, overall we have done more good than harm. when anyone in the world has their hand out, we fill it. yes we have issues, true...that is reality. but my life is a good one and I love this country. should She ask for my help again, i would gladly pick up a weapon and defend her without blinking.

Warl0rd
09-06-2007, 11:20
oh i agree.. i think it's funny how we happen to support people when we
need something..

but this is not just an american trait. Every country does it to us.. still to
this day. People don't like us, but the don't mind getting money from us..
so in the end, what is the difference?You supported ppl in the past, took sides, helped sides against others, don't say US didn't do anything.

Mr President
09-06-2007, 11:23
You supported ppl in the past, took sides, helped sides against others, don't say US didn't do anything.

confused :unsure:

i thought i agreed with you?

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 11:23
there is only one emotion i can feel when talking to people of other lands and their media-laden propaganda riddled opinion of the USA :wall::wall::wall::wall:

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 11:25
I can see where you would think this.. BUT........ Clinton was a poster boy
for President. He was more concerned about his image then what happens
to his country. His country was attacked, he didn't do anything. he sent
troops into somalia without the proper equipment, he 100% embarrassed
the United States Govt and image of the White House. He was the impeached and most of all sat on national TV and lied straight to my face when he said he did not have sexual relations with that girl!

The US economy is stronger now than it was with Clinton. The same rich
people are still getting rich and the poor remain poor. That will never change with any President. People make there own changes when it comes
to wealth.
I'm sorry and i'm trying to be nice, but this is total crap. How is the US economy stronger than it was? It almost collapsed because of those mortgage funds.

And the economy was much stronger under Clinton, because no Katrina occurred and Afghanistan and Iraq didn't occur.

I wouldn't say that USA was embarrassed by Somalia. I would say that the US soldiers did a great job. 19 casualties to 5000 or even more kills. I'd say that's the best ratio I've ever seen.



thats either in the "supporting bin laden in the past" or in the "i can keep going if you want..." part :P
My bad



oh i agree.. i think it's funny how we happen to support people when we
need something..

but this is not just an american trait. Every country does it to us.. still to
this day. People don't like us, but the don't mind getting money from us..
so in the end, what is the difference?
Well I can say for me and Warlord, that our countries don't take money from you. And US never gives money (except to Israel). It loans it.

Mr President
09-06-2007, 11:25
lol.. i can't keep up with all the posting.. well at least we lit up the forums
a bit today and got our blood flowing..

Good debates guys.. nice job!

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 11:26
LOANS??????/ a loan would indicate a chance of repayment

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 11:26
lol.. i can't keep up with all the posting.. well at least we lit up the forums
a bit today and got our blood flowing..

Good debates guys.. nice job!
Yes, thank god there's something worth debating over. Now I don't have to flame you anymore. lol

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 11:27
lol.. i can't keep up with all the posting.. well at least we lit up the forums
a bit today and got our blood flowing..

Good debates guys.. nice job!


be quiet...o wait we are on the same side(today) my bad:cool:

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 11:27
Yes, thank god there's something worth debating over. Now I don't have to flame you anymore. lol

and its killing ya too isnt it( u know u wanna just flame once..just a little )

Mr President
09-06-2007, 11:29
From NBC's Mark Murray
Possible blogger-in-chief Fred Thompson has new commentary on his Web site -- this one on the economy. Outside of touting Bush's tax cuts, Thompson doesn't offer any concrete policies. But he makes this eyebrow-raising suggestion: that Bush's economic record was as good, or even better, than Clinton's.
He writes, "If you're generally predisposed to not support tax cuts and economic growth, you're probably satisfied that the U.S. economy isn't bragged on more. But you'd also be out of step with Americans [sic] traditional optimism, and out of step with reality, too... Since the spring of 2003, the economy has had an average growth of over 3%, 8.2 million jobs have been created, and the inflation rate has stayed low. The current unemployment rate, 4.6%, is a full percentage point below what it averaged during the 1990s."
More: "People have pointed out that journalists were trumpeting economic statistics during the Clinton administration that were not as good as those we have now."

Mr President
09-06-2007, 11:31
Well I can say for me and Warlord, that our countries don't take money from you. And US never gives money (except to Israel). It loans it.

lol, i would like to see some repayments.. Loans.... lmao

only the American people know what loans are.. We are the only ones
who have to pay it back.

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 11:32
of course P, the liberal media cannot stand to mention that the Bush admin. has actually made life better economically speaking.

Warl0rd
09-06-2007, 11:32
LOANS??????/ a loan would indicate a chance of repaymentStrange that usually the countries US help have extensive oil reserves :glare:

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 11:33
and its killing ya too isnt it( u know u wanna just flame once..just a little )
**** you **** your **** and **** because **** *****.

All I did was put the stars there. I never put any bad word there. Sue me.


From NBC's Mark Murray
Possible blogger-in-chief Fred Thompson has new commentary on his Web site -- this one on the economy. Outside of touting Bush's tax cuts, Thompson doesn't offer any concrete policies. But he makes this eyebrow-raising suggestion: that Bush's economic record was as good, or even better, than Clinton's.
He writes, "If you're generally predisposed to not support tax cuts and economic growth, you're probably satisfied that the U.S. economy isn't bragged on more. But you'd also be out of step with Americans [sic] traditional optimism, and out of step with reality, too... Since the spring of 2003, the economy has had an average growth of over 3%, 8.2 million jobs have been created, and the inflation rate has stayed low. The current unemployment rate, 4.6%, is a full percentage point below what it averaged during the 1990s."
More: "People have pointed out that journalists were trumpeting economic statistics during the Clinton administration that were not as good as those we have now."
Prez, you have two sides. Democrats and Republicans. Journalists work for both. And it's not journalists who do the economic research. It's the economists.

Mr President
09-06-2007, 11:33
Strange that usually the countries US help have extensive oil reserves :glare:

we are not as stupid as you think.. And you can't tell me that if any
other nation was a powerful as the US that they wouldn't be doing
the same thing.

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 11:33
we are not as stupid as you think! :dblthumbup:
You mean not as stupid as you look?

Mr President
09-06-2007, 11:37
**** you **** your **** and **** because **** *****.

All I did was put the stars there. I never put any bad word there. Sue me.


Prez, you have two sides. Democrats and Republicans. Journalists work for both. And it's not journalists who do the economic research. It's the economists.


of course you would have 2 sides.. i was just showing you this one. I
personally feel the economy is better now than then. The stock market
is breaking all time records, people are spending money ect ect ect.. but
there are those who feel differently.

Mr President
09-06-2007, 11:37
You mean not as stupid as you look?

ranger, you going to let him talk like that about you?

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 11:45
huh, u talking to me. sorry was wondering about emigrating to one of those "cooler" countries...NOTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!! ok spetz, lets settle this. i challenge you to an arm-wrestling contest...pffft:P

Warl0rd
09-06-2007, 11:47
we are not as stupid as you think.. And you can't tell me that if any
other nation was a powerful as the US that they wouldn't be doing
the same thing.Then don't say US don't get their loans payed back :laugh:

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 12:42
still many many outstanding loans out there

Acetriad
09-06-2007, 14:58
The more gun control you have the less guns that people who obey the law have, right? What about the people who don't obey the law? They are the ones we need to worry about anyway.
Anyone ever read any of the "in the Ashes" books by William W. Johnstone? Like "Fire in the Ashes", or "Anarchy in the Ashes"? I honestly think that General Raines had it just about right with his Tri-States. (Mr. P. you especially I believe would really like reading that series, I think they would be up your alley)
All citicens were armed, crime wasn't tolerated, everyone who could work, was given a job, and if you didn't like it, you got escorted to the border.

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 15:05
sounds like paradise

Warl0rd
09-06-2007, 15:49
The more gun control you have the less guns that people who obey the law have, right? What about the people who don't obey the law? They are the ones we need to worry about anyway.
Anyone ever read any of the "in the Ashes" books by William W. Johnstone? Like "Fire in the Ashes", or "Anarchy in the Ashes"? I honestly think that General Raines had it just about right with his Tri-States. (Mr. P. you especially I believe would really like reading that series, I think they would be up your alley)
All citicens were armed, crime wasn't tolerated, everyone who could work, was given a job, and if you didn't like it, you got escorted to the border.Do you have any idea about where do criminals get the guns? i'll give you a hint, they are sold legally in every corner.

Spetznaz_GRU
09-06-2007, 19:47
huh, u talking to me. sorry was wondering about emigrating to one of those "cooler" countries...NOTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!! ok spetz, lets settle this. i challenge you to an arm-wrestling contest...pffft:P
I was going to suggest to show off our feet and see which is bigger, thus being the bigger man as well. lol

Oh and our countries don't accept retarded rednecks. So don't even act like you don't want to, you just know that you can't. lol


still many many outstanding loans out thereThat's the risk you take when you loan something.


The more gun control you have the less guns that people who obey the law have, right? What about the people who don't obey the law? They are the ones we need to worry about anyway.
Anyone ever read any of the "in the Ashes" books by William W. Johnstone? Like "Fire in the Ashes", or "Anarchy in the Ashes"? I honestly think that General Raines had it just about right with his Tri-States. (Mr. P. you especially I believe would really like reading that series, I think they would be up your alley)
All citicens were armed, crime wasn't tolerated, everyone who could work, was given a job, and if you didn't like it, you got escorted to the border.Oh stop giving us the same crap over and over again. What do you think? If 100 different people say the same thing, that it sounds like 100 different arguments? You're all copying the last one that said it. So bring something new to this conversation or get the **** out. And if you read stories and believe in them... well go read about the black duckling for all I care. It's FICTION. What don't you get? You're looking like a 5 year old, when grown ups are discussing facts and what actually did happen in history and such and then you come up with saying "oh yeah, but on spiderman they did this and this might be the solution." I mean how retarded can you be?


Do you have any idea about where do criminals get the guns? i'll give you a hint, they are sold legally in every corner.I just don't get it how you're not tired of explaining the same old thing. Well let me give you this example. Some dude had sex with your wife. You have a gun, you shoot them both. Is this a legit reason to shoot people?

ranger2112
09-06-2007, 19:53
nah, i would just shoot my wife...the dude is innocent

Mwahahahaha
09-07-2007, 20:00
USA was the shining light in an evil world dominated by evil power hungry empires until the robber barons took over.

The basis of the US nation is something every country should learn from, but something went wrong. From being the country ensuring freedom not only for it's own population, but also with a wish of granting this gift to the rest of the world, it went to being the country wanting to influence everything that happened all over the world towards it's own interest. Something that wouldn't be such a bad thing if it stayed true to the words of the founding fathers, but as we all know, it hasn't.

As for the original subject, gun control, I have difficulties seeing it as anything but a position of capitulation. A position of failure. If common people has to keep guns to protect themselves, clearly it means that someone's done a piss poor job at running things. The path to go from such a problematic situation though, is a tricky one, but to post some thoughts on that. I would never carry weapons. I have difficulties seeing the usefulness. If someone pointed a gun on me, carrying a weapon would ensure that he would pull the trigger. Otherwise, I'd just hand over my wallet and consider it a payment for living a couple of years longer. If situations like that were something I'd have to consider, I'd find a different place to live.

ranger2112
09-07-2007, 20:05
i hear the Netherlands are nice

ooga booga
09-07-2007, 21:05
I'm sure its lower then US. And the number of death by firearms can't even be compared.

Your the second guy telling this, i guess its a problem with US citizens! they forget that policeman also have guns, and its their job to make sure your safe.

Of course the number of deaths by firearms is going to be lower in the Netherlands. They have only 16 million people living there for goodness sake. :laugh: Even if you compare per 1,000 people or whatever, of course it will be lower when they lack the huge urban cities that we have over here. Any big city around the world is due to have it's share of crime.

Acetriad
09-08-2007, 23:40
Oh stop giving us the same crap over and over again. What do you think? If 100 different people say the same thing, that it sounds like 100 different arguments? You're all copying the last one that said it. So bring something new to this conversation or get the **** out. And if you read stories and believe in them... well go read about the black duckling for all I care. It's FICTION. What don't you get? You're looking like a 5 year old, when grown ups are discussing facts and what actually did happen in history and such and then you come up with saying "oh yeah, but on spiderman they did this and this might be the solution." I mean how retarded can you be?
Well now, I never said that it was a documentary did I? However, the idea of an America with its people armed and trained is a hypothetical situation, because right now its FICTION (my caps-locks works too!) Now, I didn't say that Ben Raines' Tri-States were perfect. I just said that I thought it to be a good system, one that was "just about right" I also wanted to mention some books that like-minded people might enjoy. And if you really want to get cute, I don't think that ol Spidey could quite get stuck into this particular argument, but the whole "With great power comes great responsibility" thing would be a valid argument in the discussion about the U.S. always sticking its nose into other nation's business. So there, I was a six year old for you and and stuck a spiderman reference in for you lol.
As for facts and figures, If you want facts and figures, here you go. Everytime the American Government severly pisses off the people, crime-rates sky-rocket (good example: prohibiton). Same thing happens on a lesser scale with more moderate irritations... like takeing our guns, or letting murder's and worse walk the streets after spending a year or two in our "criminal education centers" where they are taught to be better and more ruthless criminals (aka. prison).
When gun control is tightened, law abideing people lose their guns. Strangely enough, criminals are not law abideing people. The crime rate goes up.
Sure, cops are there to protect us. I am glad that some of them believe in "Serve and Protect" but too darn many of them believe in "Harrass and Imprison"
You want a fun story? It was in my paper a while ago. A guy goes into a store with a gun and tries to hold the place up. So the owner shoots him. The crook then sues the owner and wins. That right there is the state of the justice system today. I'll bet you that if the crook knew beforhand that the owner of the store was armed, he might have thought twice... but only right-wing redneck hunters and kooks have guns right? Good law abideing crooks sure don't have them.
The second amendment, the right to bare arms hasn't got one darn thing to do with T-shirts. Its about GUNS. Our founding fathers, after finally overthrowing a hostile and opressive form of government belived so strongly that good law abiding citicens should have guns that they put it into the very structuring document of our nation.
Now, were some bad ideas tossed around at the Constitutional Convention? Sure there were... Ben Franklin thought the national bird should be the turkey for pete's sakes! However, the bad ideas got weeded out. (not to say that later generations of lawmakers haven't mucked the entire thing up since).
Every other constitutional right is... well, until the Patriot Act, was considered inviolate and sancrosect. Why is it that people can stand by and see the second one crapped on all the time?
Do I own a gun? No, I don't. However, if you try to take my RIGHT to have one... I'm not going to be happy about it, or take it lying down. I've thought many times about getting a gun, however, I sometimes have company over in the form of small children and people who have drank too much. Its enough of a hassle to keep my ornamental knives and swords out of reach. If I can ever find a nice secure gun cabnet, I might start a collection.
Does that put me at a disadvantage if someone breaks into my home? Yes it does. However, I hope that my combat training, quick thinking, and faith in the Lord will keep me and mine safe. I wouldn't have a problem trying to take a gun away from an intruder and useing it on them. I might not suceed, but I think I have a better chance than the average American. I most certainly would not look down on someone who did have a gun in their home for such a circumstance.

Hamlet
09-09-2007, 19:49
Of course the number of deaths by firearms is going to be lower in the Netherlands. They have only 16 million people living there for goodness sake. :laugh: Even if you compare per 1,000 people or whatever, of course it will be lower when they lack the huge urban cities that we have over here. Any big city around the world is due to have it's share of crime.

Urbanization isn't the best explanation of differences in homicide rates as the figures below illustrates:

Homicides per 100.000 (average 1999-2001):

EU: 1.59
USA: 5.56
South Africa: 55.86

An alternative is to compare the homicide rates per 100.000 citizens in major urban cities. Thus eliminating the question of rural -vs- urban, and at the same time adjusting for the differences in size between 'the big urban cities'.

Homicides per 100.000 (average 1999-2001):

London (UK): 2.28
Vienna (Austria): 2.84
Brussels (Belgium): 2.87
Prague (Czech Rep.): 4.33
Copenhagen (Denmark): 1.81
Tallinn (Estonia): 9.40
Paris (France): 2.00
Berlin (Germany): 2.34
Athens (Greece): 0.34
Budapest (Hungary): 2.40
Dublin (Eire): 1.88
Rome (Italy): 1.24
Amsterdam (Netherlands): 3.13
Oslo (Norway): 1.70
Warsaw (Poland): 4.00
Lisbon (Portugal): 1.50
Moscow (Russia): 18.38
Madrid (Spain): 1.84
Stockholm (Sweden): 2.77
Ankara (Turkey): 2.55
Sydney (Australia): 1.63
Tokyo (Japan): 1.21
Dallas (USA): 19.29
New York (USA): 8.65
San Fransisco (USA): 8.10
Washington DC (USA): 42.87

Source: Home Office Statistical Bulletin 12/03 (London, UK)

ooga booga
09-09-2007, 20:22
wow, thanks for posting statistics that are 7 years out of date. You totally proved your point. :rolleyes:

Warl0rd
09-10-2007, 06:00
Yeah I'm sure everything changed meanwhile, I mean there are alot less guns in US now...