View Full Version : US passes Health care reform Bill
I have not read the bill.
But from what I understand it will be pretty hard to make the situation down there any worse in terms of health care, so if this doesn't make some improvements, Obama is Uber Fail.
I suspect we will see some improvements in the long run, Republicans have proposing no change, and combating these health care reforms all along, in the name of the people, while these very people are loseing their homes to medical bills.
Z
**** Z you beat me to it. I was going to have some fun with the thread title too.
One of the forums I frequent is predicting civil war over this.
I would love to see civil war.
But IMO that is impossible in the USA today.
perhaps 50 years ago, but not now.
a more likely event is an insurrection/revolution.
Z
I would love to see civil war.
But IMO that is impossible in the USA today.
perhaps 50 years ago, but not now.
a more likely event is an insurrection/revolution.
Z
on a side note what is so civil about war ?:P
I have not read the bill.
But from what I understand it will be pretty hard to make the situation down there any worse in terms of health care, so if this doesn't make some improvements, Obama is Uber Fail.
I suspect we will see some improvements in the long run, Republicans have proposing no change, and combating these health care reforms all along, in the name of the people, while these very people are loseing their homes to medical bills.
Z
Medical bills, at least in my state, can't be garnished from wages or sued over.
Mr President
03-22-2010, 19:42
I have not read the bill.
But from what I understand it will be pretty hard to make the situation down there any worse in terms of health care, so if this doesn't make some improvements, Obama is Uber Fail.
I suspect we will see some improvements in the long run, Republicans have proposing no change, and combating these health care reforms all along, in the name of the people, while these very people are loseing their homes to medical bills.
Z
Don't feel bad. 95% of American have no idea what this bill is really about or what it will or will not do. We only get short versions of the bill. You would think that our congressman would take the time to inform the people he represents about the goods and bads of the bill. But he is too busy tickling other guys at his 50th birthday party.
I am very concerned over this bill. From the small things i have read about it It is going to cost this country a fortune.. And that is a fortune we don't have.
Now I also don't see how we can be forced to take this insurance or pay a 25k fine. last i knew the congress shall make no law of this sort. Could be why many states are taking the govt to court over it.
My biggest issue with this bill is, when the hell did it become the Govt job to pay all of our bills for us? This is just one more way for those who don't want to work, get an easier life. There are those who do need assistance. But assistance isn't a life time of free stuff. In my neck of the woods they took away child sitting money to help parents pay for daycare while they worked. So here we have moms and dads out working to better themselves but are coming up a little short so they got some aid to help pay daycare and they take that away.. But yet, we have tons of people who don't work due to pure lazyness and now they will get free health care along with all the other food stamps and welfare money to spend as they wish. Cause there rent is paid for them too.
Bailouts for banks, more free crap so people can stay home and do nothing even longer.. I am sick to death of it. I am all for helping people out during hard times. Help them get on there feet. But after a year or so time is up. If I lost my job and couldn't find anything else in a short per of time then my *** would be flipping burgers at McDonald's if need be. Pride is pride, but money is money. Pride doesn't pay bills.. But i guess if I wanted to I could just lose my pride and live off everyone else.. NOT!
We have two wars going on. The Taliban is still growing. Our banks take billions from us then raise our rates and give huge bonuses to there own, Social Security will be broke soon, taxes are ridiculous, our country has a trade deficit about the size of Nancy Pelosi's mouth, jobs are scarce, people are hungry, welfare is running ramped, medicare fraud is out of control but yes, let's focus on giving people more free stuff instead of making them work a little for it. And i love how we all start paying for it now, but yet the program doesn't even start till 2013.. Perhaps this is Obama's secret way of raising taxes without raising taxes.
He thinks this health care bill saved his presidency, I personally think he just sunk it. I gave this man a fair shot. He has done nothing but give more free **** away.
Perhaps if we create more jobs, then people will earn money and could pay for health care themselves. Of course things did have to change with the Insurance companies but at least it wouldn't add a trillion dollars to our deficit.
The congress has something like a 12% approval rating.. I wonder why that is? And I wonder where this man who WE THE PEOPLE elected, feels he can just go off and make us pay for something WE have clearly stated we didn't want! I'm sorry his mother couldn't afford things when he was young. I'm sorry his grandmother couldn't afford things when she was young, but does that mean those who do work and try to earn a living and pay for things we want must now start paying for those who don't work?
Sorry for the rant but i'm just so sick of free loaders. There are those truly in need of help. And then there are those who are lazy and choose the path of least resistance cause they can. Maybe they are the smart ones and i'm the dumb one..
Don't feel bad. 95% of American have no idea what this bill is really about or what it will or will not do. We only get short versions of the bill. You would think that our congressman would take the time to inform the people he represents about the goods and bads of the bill. But he is too busy tickling other guys at his 50th birthday party.
I am very concerned over this bill. From the small things i have read about it It is going to cost this country a fortune.. And that is a fortune we don't have.
Now I also don't see how we can be forced to take this insurance or pay a 25k fine. last i knew the congress shall make no law of this sort. Could be why many states are taking the govt to court over it.
My biggest issue with this bill is, when the hell did it become the Govt job to pay all of our bills for us? This is just one more way for those who don't want to work, get an easier life. There are those who do need assistance. But assistance isn't a life time of free stuff. In my neck of the woods they took away child sitting money to help parents pay for daycare while they worked. So here we have moms and dads out working to better themselves but are coming up a little short so they got some aid to help pay daycare and they take that away.. But yet, we have tons of people who don't work due to pure lazyness and now they will get free health care along with all the other food stamps and welfare money to spend as they wish. Cause there rent is paid for them too.
Bailouts for banks, more free crap so people can stay home and do nothing even longer.. I am sick to death of it. I am all for helping people out during hard times. Help them get on there feet. But after a year or so time is up. If I lost my job and couldn't find anything else in a short per of time then my *** would be flipping burgers at McDonald's if need be. Pride is pride, but money is money. Pride doesn't pay bills.. But i guess if I wanted to I could just lose my pride and live off everyone else.. NOT!
We have two wars going on. The Taliban is still growing. Our banks take billions from us then raise our rates and give huge bonuses to there own, Social Security will be broke soon, taxes are ridiculous, our country has a trade deficit about the size of Nancy Pelosi's mouth, jobs are scarce, people are hungry, welfare is running ramped, medicare fraud is out of control but yes, let's focus on giving people more free stuff instead of making them work a little for it. And i love how we all start paying for it now, but yet the program doesn't even start till 2013.. Perhaps this is Obama's secret way of raising taxes without raising taxes.
He thinks this health care bill saved his presidency, I personally think he just sunk it. I gave this man a fair shot. He has done nothing but give more free **** away.
Perhaps if we create more jobs, then people will earn money and could pay for health care themselves. Of course things did have to change with the Insurance companies but at least it wouldn't add a trillion dollars to our deficit.
The congress has something like a 12% approval rating.. I wonder why that is? And I wonder where this man who WE THE PEOPLE elected, feels he can just go off and make us pay for something WE have clearly stated we didn't want! I'm sorry his mother couldn't afford things when he was young. I'm sorry his grandmother couldn't afford things when she was young, but does that mean those who do work and try to earn a living and pay for things we want must now start paying for those who don't work?
Sorry for the rant but i'm just so sick of free loaders. There are those truly in need of help. And then there are those who are lazy and choose the path of least resistance cause they can. Maybe they are the smart ones and i'm the dumb one..
Pres what you say would make sense if there were jobs for everyone, but that isn't the case. You're right that some people don't want to work, but there are plenty of people out there who would love to work but can't get a job as the country stands (this applies to the UK as much as the US) I don't know what the figures are over there, but here we have something like 2.5 million unemployed and 500,000 vacancies. Even if you could fill them all tomorrow it still leaves two million unemployed.
For all their rhetoric about creating jobs, it suits the government (and their backers in big business) to have a large pool of unemployed for the simple fact that it weakens unions. No one will dare strike if they can be sacked and easily replaced by someone on the dole queue.
Under the US system (pre-bill) uninsured people if they become ill, would be for all intents and purposes living in the dark ages when it came to healthcare. Also, the bill closes a lot of loopholes when it comes to insurance practices (such as making them take people with pre-existing conditions) that otherwise would have been ignored.
You should hardly worry about free handouts to banks or the unemployed when the US gives free handouts to other states, most notably Israel to the tune of 3 billion dollars a year. And what does Israel give the US in return? Stirring up trouble with settlement building, giving Bin Laden all the excuses he needs to launch terror attacks. It's quite possible that he would carry on even if Israel was cut off, but even if he did, you would be cutting out a key plank of his propaganda by letting Israel sink. If the US supported Britain to the extent it has supported Israel, we would likely still have an Empire today. Of course, no US politician will dare to defy the Israeli lobby, and this is at the core of the problem. Until you do, you will never see a foreign policy that puts America first.
Ask yourself this: what would really happen if the US stopped fighting those wars? would the Taliban invade the US? Would Bin Laden secretly travel to Washington and attack the White House? The US could easily cut defence spending by at least half, and still be #1 in the world militarily. A large portion of what you already spend goes into the pockets of various corporations and never to the services themselves. It is these same corporations that drive the US into wars it doesn't need to fight, purely to boost their profits. No country in the world today poses a serious threat to the US barring nukes, and no one will use them.
There is one other thing which you have overlooked concerning the costs of healthcare. Improving coverage will both improve morale in the workplace and drastically cut the amount of time lost to illness/injury, resulting in a significant boost to productivity. Not everyone without coverage is unemployed.
Pres what you say would make sense if there were jobs for everyone, but that isn't the case. You're right that some people don't want to work, but there are plenty of people out there who would love to work but can't get a job as the country stands (this applies to the UK as much as the US) I don't know what the figures are over there, but here we have something like 2.5 million unemployed and 500,000 vacancies. Even if you could fill them all tomorrow it still leaves two million unemployed.
For all their rhetoric about creating jobs, it suits the government (and their backers in big business) to have a large pool of unemployed for the simple fact that it weakens unions. No one will dare strike if they can be sacked and easily replaced by someone on the dole queue.
Under the US system (pre-bill) uninsured people if they become ill, would be for all intents and purposes living in the dark ages when it came to healthcare. Also, the bill closes a lot of loopholes when it comes to insurance practices (such as making them take people with pre-existing conditions) that otherwise would have been ignored.
You should hardly worry about free handouts to banks or the unemployed when the US gives free handouts to other states, most notably Israel to the tune of 3 billion dollars a year. And what does Israel give the US in return? Stirring up trouble with settlement building, giving Bin Laden all the excuses he needs to launch terror attacks. It's quite possible that he would carry on even if Israel was cut off, but even if he did, you would be cutting out a key plank of his propaganda by letting Israel sink. If the US supported Britain to the extent it has supported Israel, we would likely still have an Empire today. Of course, no US politician will dare to defy the Israeli lobby, and this is at the core of the problem. Until you do, you will never see a foreign policy that puts America first.
Ask yourself this: what would really happen if the US stopped fighting those wars? would the Taliban invade the US? Would Bin Laden secretly travel to Washington and attack the White House? The US could easily cut defence spending by at least half, and still be #1 in the world militarily. A large portion of what you already spend goes into the pockets of various corporations and never to the services themselves. It is these same corporations that drive the US into wars it doesn't need to fight, purely to boost their profits. No country in the world today poses a serious threat to the US barring nukes, and no one will use them.
There is one other thing which you have overlooked concerning the costs of healthcare. Improving coverage will both improve morale in the workplace and drastically cut the amount of time lost to illness/injury, resulting in a significant boost to productivity. Not everyone without coverage is unemployed.
This is the most amazing post I have ever read.
I'm glad another person here sees things as I do to some degree.
Z
Don't feel bad. 95% of American have no idea what this bill is really about or what it will or will not do. We only get short versions of the bill. You would think that our congressman would take the time to inform the people he represents about the goods and bads of the bill. But he is too busy tickling other guys at his 50th birthday party.
I am very concerned over this bill. From the small things i have read about it It is going to cost this country a fortune.. And that is a fortune we don't have.
Now I also don't see how we can be forced to take this insurance or pay a 25k fine. last i knew the congress shall make no law of this sort. Could be why many states are taking the govt to court over it.
My biggest issue with this bill is, when the hell did it become the Govt job to pay all of our bills for us? This is just one more way for those who don't want to work, get an easier life. There are those who do need assistance. But assistance isn't a life time of free stuff. In my neck of the woods they took away child sitting money to help parents pay for daycare while they worked. So here we have moms and dads out working to better themselves but are coming up a little short so they got some aid to help pay daycare and they take that away.. But yet, we have tons of people who don't work due to pure lazyness and now they will get free health care along with all the other food stamps and welfare money to spend as they wish. Cause there rent is paid for them too.
Bailouts for banks, more free crap so people can stay home and do nothing even longer.. I am sick to death of it. I am all for helping people out during hard times. Help them get on there feet. But after a year or so time is up. If I lost my job and couldn't find anything else in a short per of time then my *** would be flipping burgers at McDonald's if need be. Pride is pride, but money is money. Pride doesn't pay bills.. But i guess if I wanted to I could just lose my pride and live off everyone else.. NOT!
We have two wars going on. The Taliban is still growing. Our banks take billions from us then raise our rates and give huge bonuses to there own, Social Security will be broke soon, taxes are ridiculous, our country has a trade deficit about the size of Nancy Pelosi's mouth, jobs are scarce, people are hungry, welfare is running ramped, medicare fraud is out of control but yes, let's focus on giving people more free stuff instead of making them work a little for it. And i love how we all start paying for it now, but yet the program doesn't even start till 2013.. Perhaps this is Obama's secret way of raising taxes without raising taxes.
He thinks this health care bill saved his presidency, I personally think he just sunk it. I gave this man a fair shot. He has done nothing but give more free **** away.
Perhaps if we create more jobs, then people will earn money and could pay for health care themselves. Of course things did have to change with the Insurance companies but at least it wouldn't add a trillion dollars to our deficit.
The congress has something like a 12% approval rating.. I wonder why that is? And I wonder where this man who WE THE PEOPLE elected, feels he can just go off and make us pay for something WE have clearly stated we didn't want! I'm sorry his mother couldn't afford things when he was young. I'm sorry his grandmother couldn't afford things when she was young, but does that mean those who do work and try to earn a living and pay for things we want must now start paying for those who don't work?
Sorry for the rant but i'm just so sick of free loaders. There are those truly in need of help. And then there are those who are lazy and choose the path of least resistance cause they can. Maybe they are the smart ones and i'm the dumb one..
Mr. P, you make some very Valid points here, and I remember you also took a stand when It came to bailing out the banks, (as did everyone I think)
Basically when America bailed out those banks, that was the lowest point I think US politics could get to, without admitting to straight up fascism.
After the bank bailouts it was basically anything goes.
Now, I agree this health bill is going to cost a fortune, just like the war and the bailouts did.
But frankly, If I was an American, I would have far less objections to this money spending, than spending money on war, or bailing out banks.
This Money is going to help people, not kill people, or make bankers rich, and condition institutions to continue greedy policy and behavior.
Even if 3/4 of this money is a TOTAL WASTE (which it will not be) the 1/4 left will have done far more good than the money spent on war and bailouts.
Its Health Care.
HEALTH CARE
CARE HEALTH
HEALTH CARE
CARE HEALTH.
these 2 words are not easily mixed up with bombs, fire, guns, and Jihad.
Careing for the Health of the people of your Nation should be a #1 priority for any civilized nation.
Look at the rest of the world, Canada, UK, Sweden, Finland, Spain, (Im not ever sure who else)
These countries have good universal type health care provided for all citizens.
Why is it that some people in America still want to live like its 1920?
People should have to work for the things in life they desire, fancy crap, gold, beautiful homes, a hot tub, cars, caviar, whatever it is that floats your boat.
Health care is something that is a basic Human need its something we all not only desire, but need no matter our religion, race, or subculture, health care is something everyone benefits from equally, and should be considered a basic human right this day and age.
What kind of civilization are we if not to be moving forward, and providing our people with better basic supplies like medicine over the decades?
Is rather sick if u ask me, that as civilization seemingly progresses, we are now charging money for water.
We should be going in the opposite direction.
America has been a terrible example for the rest of the world, and Its about time they stepped up to plate and took care of their own people.
This is peoples health we are talking about, I mean come on?
Good grief...
HEALTH!?
Z
Z
Disorder
03-23-2010, 06:58
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tCAffMSWSzY
Mr President
03-23-2010, 12:51
Pres what you say would make sense if there were jobs for everyone, but that isn't the case. You're right that some people don't want to work, but there are plenty of people out there who would love to work but can't get a job as the country stands (this applies to the UK as much as the US) I don't know what the figures are over there, but here we have something like 2.5 million unemployed and 500,000 vacancies. Even if you could fill them all tomorrow it still leaves two million unemployed.
For all their rhetoric about creating jobs, it suits the government (and their backers in big business) to have a large pool of unemployed for the simple fact that it weakens unions. No one will dare strike if they can be sacked and easily replaced by someone on the dole queue.
Under the US system (pre-bill) uninsured people if they become ill, would be for all intents and purposes living in the dark ages when it came to healthcare. Also, the bill closes a lot of loopholes when it comes to insurance practices (such as making them take people with pre-existing conditions) that otherwise would have been ignored.
You should hardly worry about free handouts to banks or the unemployed when the US gives free handouts to other states, most notably Israel to the tune of 3 billion dollars a year. And what does Israel give the US in return? Stirring up trouble with settlement building, giving Bin Laden all the excuses he needs to launch terror attacks. It's quite possible that he would carry on even if Israel was cut off, but even if he did, you would be cutting out a key plank of his propaganda by letting Israel sink. If the US supported Britain to the extent it has supported Israel, we would likely still have an Empire today. Of course, no US politician will dare to defy the Israeli lobby, and this is at the core of the problem. Until you do, you will never see a foreign policy that puts America first.
Ask yourself this: what would really happen if the US stopped fighting those wars? would the Taliban invade the US? Would Bin Laden secretly travel to Washington and attack the White House? The US could easily cut defence spending by at least half, and still be #1 in the world militarily. A large portion of what you already spend goes into the pockets of various corporations and never to the services themselves. It is these same corporations that drive the US into wars it doesn't need to fight, purely to boost their profits. No country in the world today poses a serious threat to the US barring nukes, and no one will use them.
There is one other thing which you have overlooked concerning the costs of healthcare. Improving coverage will both improve morale in the workplace and drastically cut the amount of time lost to illness/injury, resulting in a significant boost to productivity. Not everyone without coverage is unemployed.
Great post Will. Today as i was driving i started thinking about my post and how i shouldn't have posted it till i knew more about the bill. I was infact doing what most people have done with this bill and that is speculate. But honestly that is all you can do seeing nobody is really breaking it all down for us. All we hear are the small parts and not the big picture.
Let me make my stance clear, I am all for health care. I feel healt care is a right and not a privilage. But i don't like being told that if i don't have health care then i have to pay a fine.. (or tax as the dems are calling it). It's like the seatbelt law, they force us to wear them cause they save lives.. lol like the state really cares if i live or die. All they want it the money that came with that law. The federal govt has no right to tell me that if i don't have something then i have to pay a fine. Might be why 13 states have already began to take the govt to court.
There could be jobs for everyone if they really wanted it to be. But as you stated, it helps weaken the unions as it is right now. But that is only one of many reasons. So for those of us with jobs and working hard to make a living, we now have to carry those who don't even try.
There are millions who wish they did have a job and are trying hard to get one. So as part of an unemployment benifit then offer healthcare till they do get a job. As long as people are trying then i have no problem with that. It's the ones who sit home and do nothing and get all the free stuff and are not even made to try.. Thats the ones that bother me.
And Will you are 100000% correct when you talk about how much we hand out to other nations and get nothing back. I was mad as can be when Katrina hit and not one other nation offered any type of aid.. But yet someone farts in a church in some 3rd world country and the US is expected to send billions.
I have more to say but i'll end here due to me being at work. I'll post more when i get home :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tCAffMSWSzY
... way to intelligently contribute to the thread Disorder!
lol
Z
Great post Will. Today as i was driving i started thinking about my post and how i shouldn't have posted it till i knew more about the bill. I was infact doing what most people have done with this bill and that is speculate. But honestly that is all you can do seeing nobody is really breaking it all down for us. All we hear are the small parts and not the big picture.
Let me make my stance clear, I am all for health care. I feel healt care is a right and not a privilage. But i don't like being told that if i don't have health care then i have to pay a fine.. (or tax as the dems are calling it). It's like the seatbelt law, they force us to wear them cause they save lives.. lol like the state really cares if i live or die. All they want it the money that came with that law. The federal govt has no right to tell me that if i don't have something then i have to pay a fine. Might be why 13 states have already began to take the govt to court.
There could be jobs for everyone if they really wanted it to be. But as you stated, it helps weaken the unions as it is right now. But that is only one of many reasons. So for those of us with jobs and working hard to make a living, we now have to carry those who don't even try.
There are millions who wish they did have a job and are trying hard to get one. So as part of an unemployment benifit then offer healthcare till they do get a job. As long as people are trying then i have no problem with that. It's the ones who sit home and do nothing and get all the free stuff and are not even made to try.. Thats the ones that bother me.
And Will you are 100000% correct when you talk about how much we hand out to other nations and get nothing back. I was mad as can be when Katrina hit and not one other nation offered any type of aid.. But yet someone farts in a church in some 3rd world country and the US is expected to send billions.
I have more to say but i'll end here due to me being at work. I'll post more when i get home :)
I think I agree with all of what you have said Mr. Pres.
I'm for socialism(to a certain degree), but I am not for welfare. some people think they come with one another, but I see no need for that.
Some people such as Dogma might suggest that I am some socialism lazy liberal punk. But I do not support pure socialism. That would be as bad as communism, which did not work. In Canada we have more socialist policies than you have in America, however I feel that we could go even further. For example, health care is provided thru tax dollars, but eye care, and dental care is not. I feel we could include these.
Employment insurance benefits are, in my opinion, different than welfare, they are meant for short periods of time (where I am from, 6-9 months max I think) when people are in between jobs.
Welfare is not cool, it encourages people to procreate and birth whole new generations of welfare dependent citizens (possibly).
Walfare is simply incorrect.
I am not the most motivated person in the world, in fact I dislike my job, and most of the jobs I have had over the years, but I do them. I work hard all year round, unless I am in school.
That is how u make a living. Even animals need to hunt for their dinner, and build nests etc.
Its only natural to have to work for your survival.
Mr. P, you said everyone could have jobs... and that is true, however, with the innovations of the last 50 years, and the growing population, it is getting harder and harder to provide jobs for people.
we could take the machines out of the field that pick the stones, and there is a job for 10 people maybe that 1 man would have done b4 in a machine... but that costs money, and no one seems to want to pick rocks from fields all year long these days...
Its a quagmire.
I actually find it pretty sick how USA sends Israel 3Billion yearly directly to fund their military.
USA also send Israel other money and assistance aside from that. the 3B yealy amount goes directly to Israeli Military funding, and nothing else.
In reality I think It is closer to 4 or 5 Billion a year in total cash that is sent to israel, but the only firm number I am sure of is the 3B that goes Directly, and only to Military spending.
USA is so desperately messed up that even if a few of these issues were fixed, you would still be a long way from making the changes needed to repair your countries core structure.
I wish it was not so, and I am not trying to bash USA in this thread at all...
All the power to you in your attempts to make repairs.
In my opinion providing health care to your citizens is a step in the right direction.
now maybe U can stop sending all the citizens tax dollars to Israel, Quit invading countries with your military, cut your military spending in half, quit bailing out banks...
then U might be in shape to tackle a lot of the other smaller (yet still large) issues your country has.
Z
in sweden if you go a gp it will cost you a small sum to be examined but if then you need say an xray or whatever your doc sends you there and it is free if you go to hospital in an emergency it´s free of charge.
dental is not free but it is subsidized same to some extent with medecin.
as for welfare we do have social security safety nets for people wich of course is to some extent abused.
if your in a union and have been it for a year and worked for 6-10 months i think it is your entitled to money for a ceartain period of time if you end up loseing your job.
most of this is of course covered thru taxes ;)
we are a fairly socialistic country...
Ok, I said I wasn't going to comment in this bill, however I keep getting called out in it, so I am going to defend myself.
Z, I do not think you are a lazy socialist and I never said I did so don't suppose you know my opinions on everything just because we have had some disagreements in the past.
I am NOT against some sort of help to those who cannot get their own helath care, but I am opposed to just giving away the farm. I am against the Federal Government requiring I buy some private anything. This congress has it in their minds that they have to power to tell everyone in this country that you WILL buy insurance or you will be fined. That is against the law.
Ours is a representative republic where the elected officials shall make laws that represent the people of their constituency. They are not. They are making thier own laws and rules so that they can become even more of an elitist group. Are they included in the health care bill they just passed? No, they voted that members of congress is opted out of it. SO, does that exude confidence in this health care plan? Doesn't for me.
I believe welfare, in its conception was a good program, but, it has been abused and played for so long we have generations of welfare families. There should be a limit to the length of time that a person can be put on welfare, just like unemployment benefits.
Just to make it perfectly clear, I live on government assistance because I am a disabled citizen. Those that can't work because of a health issue, should be taken care of. But an able bodied person, man or woman, white or black, should not be from cradle to grave just because that is the way the family has always been.
The attitude of entitlement in this country has gotten to the point that is is sickening. No one deserves anything from this country, just because they live here, or because 2oo years ago, someone in your family was done wrong, or just because of the color of your skin, or whatever reason the Dems want to pay people for. They do deserve the opportunity to provide for themselves and to succeed. we are entitled to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness as guaranteed by our constitution. No where in there does it say that if your pursuit of happiness is to lay on your *** and do nothing, we will take care of you.
The government just took over 1/6 of the economy and they have the power to dictate who gets what and when. THAT IS NOT THE FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT. They took over GM, THAT IS NOT THE FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT.
Help those who can't help themselves and offer a hand to those who need a temporary hand or leg up, but not help proliferate the welfare state that this bill is going to inevitably do.
This bill isn't the one to fix the problem. There may come a day when this country will find a program that is effective, but it isn't today.
Disorder
03-23-2010, 20:02
... way to intelligently contribute to the thread Disorder!
lol
Z
What more can I say, you are always right, and Americans are always wrong.. besides, I was on my way out the door to work.. Living the American dream is very time consuming.
What more can I say, you are always right, and Americans are always wrong.. besides, I was on my way out the door to work.. Living the American dream is very time consuming.
I'm not even sure what the american dream is...
Does it involve cocain and hookers?
if it involves working hard for your family and enjoying good times with friends, then I suppose I must be living it too.
I am not always right, just more often than not IMO.
Americans are obviously not always wrong, since there are 300M of you and there is only a 50% chance of being wrong for any individual. :-p
A good portion of Americans have simply been educated by a system that is corrupt, thus their opinions are skewed.
Z
I was a little surprised by a few numbers like
40+ percent of all medical bill payed for were paid for by medicare and medicade.
40+ percent of all people who have insurance do so througth their employer
only a little over 10% of the american population is with out insurance
so if 40+ percent is paid for by medicare and medicade isnt the gov funding almost half of the medical bills in the country anyway?
Dude if you dont have insurance and have to go the the emergency room for something as little as a cough and as much as a catastrophic accident, and you cant pay for it, MY A## has to fork over the bill for you as well as the rest of us that are insured. So yah, maybe you do need to pay a fine or be more responsible as a citizen. Pretty sick of my rates trippling every half a decade.
also if 10+% of people dont have insurance now and are going to get it how do you figure I am going to have to wait in some huge line at the Dr. office? Its not like the patient load is going to increase by 20X. Maybe now, just maybe they wont be using the Emergency room as their primary care physician and I dont have to wait 6-8 hrs if I am really in trouble.
Im not saying its the best bill or the worst, but I agree with the previous statement that 99% of people talking sh## dont even know whats in teh bill and are just listening and worse yet repeating the hype they have been spoon fed.
Also I think that the increase in production in the economy was a big point with less people taking less time off work because they didnt wait until their health problems spun out of control due to not being insured. Crap do you realize how much Facebook and the classic Windows Solitare costs the country's economy each year in lost production and productivity lol.
I see Dogma you are thrilled about this bill. I have Kaiser Perminente and my wife and I pay about 600 per month for our insurance. What kind of insurance do you have and how much does it cost?
I see Dogma you are thrilled about this bill. I have Kaiser Perminente and my wife and I pay about 600 per month for our insurance. What kind of insurance do you have and how much does it cost?
I already stated this.
Just to make it perfectly clear, I live on government assistance because I am a disabled citizen. Those that can't work because of a health issue, should be taken care of. But an able bodied person, man or woman, white or black, should not be from cradle to grave just because that is the way the family has always been.
I am on Medicare and I do pay a premium for it every month.
I was a little surprised by a few numbers like
40+ percent of all medical bill payed for were paid for by medicare and medicade.
40+ percent of all people who have insurance do so througth their employer
only a little over 10% of the american population is with out insurance
so if 40+ percent is paid for by medicare and medicade isnt the gov funding almost half of the medical bills in the country anyway?
Alright, The figure corresponding to 10% of people aren't covered is a little askew. I, personally, don't consider Medicare or MedicAID health insurance. It is a social benefit of the USA. The people have been paying for it all their lives, whether they wanted to or not. Just take a look at your paychecks every week or two.
Also, look at the age range from 18 to say 30. The number of people not insured is astronomical in both numbers and percentage. The future workers of this country are at a great risk for injuries and illness and many don't go to the doctor because they simply can't afford it. If I have to pay $1000/mo. for student loans and I'm in an entry level position, many of which don't have benefits because many companies now are not offering new enrollment in their health insurance plans, I simply cannot afford the extra $250/mo. in insurance costs. If you have a mortgage/rent, you are already adding up $2000/mo. or more in student loans and rent/mortgage alone. God forbid I have to feed myself or put gas in my car. After taxes, almost all of my money is already spoken for. If you are in a service industry, IE being a chef, there are no benefits whatsoever. Ask your employer if they offer health insurance in a non-corporate restaurant and they will laugh at you. What is someone in my position supposed to do? I've worked HARD all my life, much harder than 90% of the population works. Sure, I get job satisfaction but I live like a ****ing pauper for the rest of my life with no hope for retirement. I'd willingly pay an extra $50 per paycheck to get health insurance through the government.
well, i'm just glad insurance companies have to actually cover people now.
my mothers insurance company recently informed her that 3 years ago when she tried to change her primary care provider (doctor) she did it during a week that you were not allowed to file for a change. and that they were not going to cover her most recent bill. further more, they didn't want to cover any of her bills at her doctors office for the last 3 years.
i should also mention that she is double fully covered if you know what i mean. she has full coverage threw her job, and full coverage threw her husband's job if needed.
you want to talk about some crap that needs to be fixed, i give you this story. anyways, i told her to take them to court if need be, because if their was an error, why wait 3 years to tell her? and you can't then suddenly charge her for all bills for the last 3 years that they had previously covered. i think they were just trying to take advantage of an older lady, and i'm dead serious. she actually wrote her senator about it, he called her back last week about it.
the main point is this, if your going to make something available for everyone in this country, health care is right at the top of things everyone needs and deserves.
now what is despicable is people who are so riled up and pissed off that they can't debate, they can't listen to the other side at all. yelling and spitting at senators doesn't accomplish anything. you have that much anger towards this but when a big bank gets bailed out by our government and decides to take that bail out money and guess what? another big bonus for execs! nobody decides to wonder by this execs mansion and leave that guy with something that he will never forget. and these same people protesting this health care bill so passionately, still don't care about the **** patriot act! where was the passion then? god forbid we have universal health care in our country, but hell who cares if the government is able to spy on me *cough* excuse me, spy on anyone suspected of being a terrorist without any approval or anyone checking to see how many peoples rights were violated. i'm totally ranting at this point but ****it people are stupid, i felt like i was the only one riled up about it. only 1 freaking senator voted against it. wooo hoooo, go usa, you let your government use a horrible terrorist attack to take away more of your freedoms. when do i get my right to privacy back?!
now i'm in complete agreement about people riding the system need to go out and get a job, but for me i've been in and out of college since high school. last year i was working as a cook, and driving for a company called sober guy at nights. both companies went out of business within 3 months of each other and i'm still waiting for paychecks from both of them.
but i'm back in school now with 1 year left till i graduate. but its a rough time economically around the country.
but dogma made a very good point earlier, current system: you can't refuse an emergency room patient because they don't have health insurance. where does that bill go? to insurance companies, who then raise your rates! basically your paying for it anyway so why not cover everyone and see if we can't treat people before they end up in the emergency room? and hell insurance companies look for every way they can to drop people, and refuse to take anyone with a pre-existing condition.
i mean i can see the argument that you don't like the government saying that you have to buy something or be fined. but for me i don't mind paying my share to help cover everyone in america; neighbors, friends, family. it improves the quality of life in our country, maybe focus your thoughts on that.
next someones going to tell me global warming is a myth, and that our planet doesn't exist at a sweet spot in our galaxy where H2O is a liquid and that at least monitoring what we put into the atmosphere to affect our planet is a wasteful idea! ha!
I was a little surprised by a few numbers like
40+ percent of all medical bill payed for were paid for by medicare and medicade.
40+ percent of all people who have insurance do so througth their employer
only a little over 10% of the american population is with out insurance
so if 40+ percent is paid for by medicare and medicade isnt the gov funding almost half of the medical bills in the country anyway?
Dude if you dont have insurance and have to go the the emergency room for something as little as a cough and as much as a catastrophic accident, and you cant pay for it, MY A## has to fork over the bill for you as well as the rest of us that are insured. So yah, maybe you do need to pay a fine or be more responsible as a citizen. Pretty sick of my rates trippling every half a decade.
also if 10+% of people dont have insurance now and are going to get it how do you figure I am going to have to wait in some huge line at the Dr. office? Its not like the patient load is going to increase by 20X. Maybe now, just maybe they wont be using the Emergency room as their primary care physician and I dont have to wait 6-8 hrs if I am really in trouble.
Im not saying its the best bill or the worst, but I agree with the previous statement that 99% of people talking sh## dont even know whats in teh bill and are just listening and worse yet repeating the hype they have been spoon fed.
Also I think that the increase in production in the economy was a big point with less people taking less time off work because they didnt wait until their health problems spun out of control due to not being insured. Crap do you realize how much Facebook and the classic Windows Solitare costs the country's economy each year in lost production and productivity lol.
IMO you make some very good and PRACTICAL points here.
there will be no real noticeable increase in lineups.
if you had to wait 10 mins before, maybe now you will have to wait 11 mins.
or if you had to wait 10 weeks for a procedure maybe u will wait 11 now.
In Canada I have never had to wait more than 30 mins to see my doctor as long as I had an appointment, I did wait at the ER for 2 hours once, but if u are actually seriously injured obviously they will see u right away and leave the guy with a broken pinky finger to wait.
Z
I see Dogma you are thrilled about this bill. I have Kaiser Perminente and my wife and I pay about 600 per month for our insurance. What kind of insurance do you have and how much does it cost?
600 $ a month Holy **** and **** hell wtf
WTF is that? is your heart made of bionic gold
omg...
600 a month... wow!
I pay 0$ a month for excellent health insurance that covers everything.
wtf kind of system are you people running. ****.
Are you prone to terrible accidents, thus your rate is high?
or do all american families pay in that range for good health insurance?
I pray for your sake that this bill will create some competition in the insurance industry and reduce your rates.. I get get over that, that is insane.
Health care is not something people should make a profit on IMO... these insurance companies are playing with peoples lives.
Z
Z
I already stated this.
I am on Medicare and I do pay a premium for it every month.
u pay a premium...
but some of the costs are covered by the government?
so why do other people not also deserve to have some government help?
Z
well, i'm just glad insurance companies have to actually cover people now.
my mothers insurance company recently informed her that 3 years ago when she tried to change her primary care provider (doctor) she did it during a week that you were not allowed to file for a change. and that they were not going to cover her most recent bill. further more, they didn't want to cover any of her bills at her doctors office for the last 3 years.
i should also mention that she is double fully covered if you know what i mean. she has full coverage threw her job, and full coverage threw her husband's job if needed.
you want to talk about some crap that needs to be fixed, i give you this story. anyways, i told her to take them to court if need be, because if their was an error, why wait 3 years to tell her? and you can't then suddenly charge her for all bills for the last 3 years that they had previously covered. i think they were just trying to take advantage of an older lady, and i'm dead serious. she actually wrote her senator about it, he called her back last week about it.
the main point is this, if your going to make something available for everyone in this country, health care is right at the top of things everyone needs and deserves.
now what is despicable is people who are so riled up and pissed off that they can't debate, they can't listen to the other side at all. yelling and spitting at senators doesn't accomplish anything. you have that much anger towards this but when a big bank gets bailed out by our government and decides to take that bail out money and guess what? another big bonus for execs! nobody decides to wonder by this execs mansion and leave that guy with something that he will never forget. and these same people protesting this health care bill so passionately, still don't care about the **** patriot act! where was the passion then? god forbid we have universal health care in our country, but hell who cares if the government is able to spy on me *cough* excuse me, spy on anyone suspected of being a terrorist without any approval or anyone checking to see how many peoples rights were violated. i'm totally ranting at this point but ****it people are stupid, i felt like i was the only one riled up about it. only 1 freaking senator voted against it. wooo hoooo, go usa, you let your government use a horrible terrorist attack to take away more of your freedoms. when do i get my right to privacy back?!
now i'm in complete agreement about people riding the system need to go out and get a job, but for me i've been in and out of college since high school. last year i was working as a cook, and driving for a company called sober guy at nights. both companies went out of business within 3 months of each other and i'm still waiting for paychecks from both of them.
but i'm back in school now with 1 year left till i graduate. but its a rough time economically around the country.
but dogma made a very good point earlier, current system: you can't refuse an emergency room patient because they don't have health insurance. where does that bill go? to insurance companies, who then raise your rates! basically your paying for it anyway so why not cover everyone and see if we can't treat people before they end up in the emergency room? and hell insurance companies look for every way they can to drop people, and refuse to take anyone with a pre-existing condition.
i mean i can see the argument that you don't like the government saying that you have to buy something or be fined. but for me i don't mind paying my share to help cover everyone in america; neighbors, friends, family. it improves the quality of life in our country, maybe focus your thoughts on that.
next someones going to tell me global warming is a myth, and that our planet doesn't exist at a sweet spot in our galaxy where H2O is a liquid and that at least monitoring what we put into the atmosphere to affect our planet is a wasteful idea! ha!
I loved your rant, it made perfect sense.
I do not even understand how anyone can even argue against universal health care, it seems selfish...
then again individualism is the basis of capitalism, and I am against that... so many I am just blind to that side of things.
Z
I didnt mean to make a stand against Dogma, but... You are talking to the guy who is paying for insurance and ever increasing rates over here.
I didnt mean to make a stand against Dogma, but... You are talking to the guy who is paying for insurance and ever increasing rates over here.
thats insane, wtf is going on over there?
I understood that U paid for health care but 600 dollars a month? wtf...
30-60$ a month per person seems like a reasonable rate to pay for health insurance.
so say a family of 4 might pay 200 a month at most...
what dod u say 600? thats ridiculas...
I dont even know what to say. wtf.
Z
well -z- there are a few other things you gotta take into account, like what % of your paycheck do you pay to taxes, i'm welling to bet, we pay alot less.
No matter what Beeno your gonna pay 7.5% to fica EXCLUDING state and federal. Then you employer is also going to match that 7.5%. So as it stands you pay 7.5 and your employer pay 7.5 which is 15% of what you make goes towards SS, Medicare and Medicade. So already 15% of what I make is going to the non working and barely working. Now grant it older retired types did pay SS the whole time but mostly it was like when a 1960 $1 is now equal to a 2010 $20 due to inflation and such.
Yah Z my wife has this great "group rate" with Meals on Wheels were she works and they pay 60% of hers and 40% of mine which means they take (technically) a little more than 500.00 per month out of her check. See the avg age of the employee at Meals on Wheels is over 50 so we are stuck paying "older peoples" premiums.
Now streat value of the same policies are in between 500-600 together anyway so I just let them take it out of her check. We still have to pay Co Pays but not big ones. This DOES NOT include the kids BTW.
BeeNo to answer your question about taxes... A person who has 0 dependants can expect OVER 20% of their pay check to be with held for taxes, and that is at a very low tax bracket. The more you make the more they take. Unless your rich and can hire real good accountants so they can "hide" your money from the gov in various ways.
See they say rich people pay sooooo much, but the fact is that they can afford the top accountants to right off this and that, and invest this here and hide this there etc...
IMO you make some very good and PRACTICAL points here.
there will be no real noticeable increase in lineups.
if you had to wait 10 mins before, maybe now you will have to wait 11 mins.
or if you had to wait 10 weeks for a procedure maybe u will wait 11 now.
In Canada I have never had to wait more than 30 mins to see my doctor as long as I had an appointment, I did wait at the ER for 2 hours once, but if u are actually seriously injured obviously they will see u right away and leave the guy with a broken pinky finger to wait.
Z
Are you kidding me? Canada suffers from a server shortage of doctors and nurses. Trying to find a family doctor taking new patients is like winning the 649. Not to mention that nurses are overworked and underpaid. Anything classified as 'non life threatening' in the ER has to line up for 5-6 hours before being able to see a doctor.
The big problem in Canada is the strict medical school application standards. We've been complaining about doctor shortages for a decade now, yet the amount of med students haven't gone up accordingly in response to this problem.
Bottom line, increase med school enrollment in Canada.
Are you kidding me? Canada suffers from a server shortage of doctors and nurses. Trying to find a family doctor taking new patients is like winning the 649. Not to mention that nurses are overworked and underpaid. Anything classified as 'non life threatening' in the ER has to line up for 5-6 hours before being able to see a doctor.
The big problem in Canada is the strict medical school application standards. We've been complaining about doctor shortages for a decade now, yet the amount of med students haven't gone up accordingly in response to this problem.
Bottom line, increase med school enrollment in Canada.
Dude, you know your describing what is like in the US currently right? And we are paying for private insurance!
In my state they have for profit medical centers called "right time medical" that compete directly with the emergency room because the lines are so long. There are 5 of them with in a 30 mile radius of some of the best hostitals in the country. Anne Arundle Medical, John Hopkins, and Washington Medical. Ive driven 30 miles before for stiches and was there and back home in less than two hours when the ER was a 6-8hr wait. The cool part is that if you do not have insurance at these places you have to pay upfront. Now with more people being covered the ER may become a more viable option as it once was. Honestly I would rather be there if they had the time for me since they have all the latest equiptment.
Are you kidding me? Canada suffers from a server shortage of doctors and nurses. Trying to find a family doctor taking new patients is like winning the 649. Not to mention that nurses are overworked and underpaid. Anything classified as 'non life threatening' in the ER has to line up for 5-6 hours before being able to see a doctor.
The big problem in Canada is the strict medical school application standards. We've been complaining about doctor shortages for a decade now, yet the amount of med students haven't gone up accordingly in response to this problem.
Bottom line, increase med school enrollment in Canada.
hold on...
What part of Canada are you in Xav?
My family Doctor retied 2 years ago and I was able to find a new doctor within 3 months, before I needed an appointment, without any problem.
In my town (Hanover, ON) we have no shortage of doctors, and our nurses seem to be paid a fair wage. (I know 2 of them that work at the local hospital, they seem happy with their work and wage, although I have not grilled them on it)
My town is only 8k people, and we have a few factories, and lots of retail, but nursing at the hospital or either of the medical clinics here is looked upon as a good job.
again, Xav... where do you live? is your town impoverished?
Every time in my life that I have been to a hospital I have never waited more than 2 hours.
I have been to hospitals in:
London Ontario - London Health Sciences Centre, Children’s Hospital
- Victoria Hospital
Hanover Ontario - Hanover & District Hospital
Owen Sound - Grey Bruce Regional Health Centre
These are the only 4 hospitals I can specifically remember being in (all in ontario)
I visited a walk in medical clinic in Alberta, where I was looked after without an appointment in only 20 mins. (perhaps lucky)
Where is it you Live Xav? not in Ontario I assume?
what you are describing is terrible service...
I have had some grandparents that have been sick with Cancer and they were sent to specialists in the area in good time... my family has never had any major issues with the health care system in Ontario.
We have a lot of people here, and our federal and provincial governments seem to recognize this, and treat our citizens as if their health was important.
I seem to hear on the radio often (quarterly it seems) about some sort of grants or improvements for medical services in the area.
Where do you live Xav?
Z
Are you kidding me? Canada suffers from a server shortage of doctors and nurses. Trying to find a family doctor taking new patients is like winning the 649. Not to mention that nurses are overworked and underpaid. Anything classified as 'non life threatening' in the ER has to line up for 5-6 hours before being able to see a doctor.
The big problem in Canada is the strict medical school application standards. We've been complaining about doctor shortages for a decade now, yet the amount of med students haven't gone up accordingly in response to this problem.
Bottom line, increase med school enrollment in Canada.
7 months ago I went in with a Tooth ache to the ER to get some meds. I saw a doctor in 25-35 minutes and was out within 45 mins.
aprox 2 years ago I went in to the ER with a badly sprained ankle. I was seen IMMEDIATELY, given a shot or morphine, and sent home with some meds quickly.
There has been times where I acctually had to wait an hour or 2... but what you are describing Xav is terribly inaccurate, and it is these types of claims that lead those crazy GOP members in the USA to make statements that paint Canada as a pit of disease and malpractice.
Please narrow your scope and describe some conditions in your area...
My family and I have lived in Southern Ontario for many years, and we have had good experiences with the health care here, so when someone goes bashing it, I take concern with that, because health is my vitality, literally my life.
I can speak for at least south western ontario in saying that we have generally good health care.
Personally I would say we Have EXCELLENT health care, but that is my personal experience, and that of my family and friends.
I am sure there are those out there that have not had as good of experiences, but I can say with confidence that in my neck of the woods (which is a densely populated area) we have at least GOOD health care.
Z
Well not everyone is so privilledged to live in Southern Ontario ;)
I live(d) in Northern BC, town of 70k. I can attest due to personal circumstances, that the ER wait is hours and hours long, especially during weekends and during the morning hours. There was only 1 doctor on staff during the night and he was so incompetent we had to wait for him to call a more experienced doctor to come to the hospital. Doctor shortages and Nurse overworking has been talked about for years now. At least in our part of the country. Another Medical School was established in our community maybe 7-8 years ago exactly for that reason. The only problem is that the size of enrollment is so small, and its tied with UBC/UVIC so its not exactly producing a lot of doctors. I think the graduating class is like 12 students per year. Maybe send some of yours over to the ever neglected west?
No matter what Beeno your gonna pay 7.5% to fica EXCLUDING state and federal. Then you employer is also going to match that 7.5%. So as it stands you pay 7.5 and your employer pay 7.5 which is 15% of what you make goes towards SS, Medicare and Medicade. So already 15% of what I make is going to the non working and barely working. Now grant it older retired types did pay SS the whole time but mostly it was like when a 1960 $1 is now equal to a 2010 $20 due to inflation and such.
BeeNo to answer your question about taxes... A person who has 0 dependants can expect OVER 20% of their pay check to be with held for taxes, and that is at a very low tax bracket. The more you make the more they take. Unless your rich and can hire real good accountants so they can "hide" your money from the gov in various ways.
I made just a little under $20k last year combined between Michigan and New York. My taxes were roughly $6k for the year, including SSI and stuff. Quite ridiculous for a single guy who lives below the poverty level....
i made only 16k canadian last year...
I paid under 1k of that to income tax...
in Canada if u make under 10k u pay no tax.
the 1st 10k u make is exempt from tax.
so i only paid tax on the 6k I made, which at 15% (lowest tax bracket) equates to aprox. 900$.
If i were to have made 20k Id have paid tax on the laster 10k, because the 1st 10k anyone makes is exempt.
We have a higher retail tax here in Canada I think.
Z
6% here in Michigan, 7% if you live in New York. orrr 11% if you are in NYC.
6% here in Michigan, 7% if you live in New York. orrr 11% if you are in NYC.
is that retail tax?
in Ontario it is 13%. (this is federal and provincial combined)
I know in Alberta they do not pay any provincial tax, so I believe the tax is only 7 or 8% there, all federal.
Z
in sweden the income tax starts at 30-32% depending on wich part of the country your in the value-added tax is for most things is 25% there are a few eceptions that are at 12 and 6% thou.
you can get to wait a fair bit of time at the ER in sweden if your injury is minor it all comes down to how severe your injury and how much they have going at the time... was waiting in an examination room for 5 hours once whith a hole i my head :)
Yes, retail tax. When I go to buy stuff at the store, I pay that.
went to the ER last night for my wife who had fainted at her desk. Pretty efficient for such a busy hospital. We got there at 3 and left at 8 with dozens of tests completed. they did a pretty good job. I would have gone to the reg. dr, or to the nite time clinic to save time, but i thought it to be too serious to brush under the rug.
There was quite a few people that didnt seem like they had an "emergency" there. Meaning they most likely did not have insurance and a regular pcp.
Disorder
03-31-2010, 16:37
went to the ER last night for my wife who had fainted at her desk. Pretty efficient for such a busy hospital. We got there at 3 and left at 8 with dozens of tests completed. they did a pretty good job. I would have gone to the reg. dr, or to the nite time clinic to save time, but i thought it to be too serious to brush under the rug.
There was quite a few people that didnt seem like they had an "emergency" there. Meaning they most likely did not have insurance and a regular pcp.
Drinking a little too much at work?? :D J/k!! I hope all is well with her!!!
went to the ER last night for my wife who had fainted at her desk. Pretty efficient for such a busy hospital. We got there at 3 and left at 8 with dozens of tests completed. they did a pretty good job. I would have gone to the reg. dr, or to the nite time clinic to save time, but i thought it to be too serious to brush under the rug.
There was quite a few people that didnt seem like they had an "emergency" there. Meaning they most likely did not have insurance and a regular pcp.
Any news bro?
Just a quick question. Did any of you that oppose this bill because its too expensive protest the war in iraq? I did three times before it was started then stopped out of respect for our troops.... Its cost this nation not only trillions and trillions of dollars it has made us lose respect and friends all over the world... But if you were for the war, but against the poor and infirm getting heath care what does that make you? :(
Disorder
06-22-2010, 09:39
What does this bill have to do with the war in Iraq? I can obviously see that they have similarities. They are both wasteful and thoughtless projects that as a whole need better planning and much more research. They will both ultimately be the death of many many people as well they are both designed to alter the current rights that many people possess and or do not possess. As for corruption... aghhh... not today.
Disorder
06-22-2010, 09:40
Just a quick question. Did any of you that oppose this bill because its too expensive protest the war in iraq? I did three times before it was started then stopped out of respect for our troops.... Its cost this nation not only trillions and trillions of dollars it has made us lose respect and friends all over the world... But if you were for the war, but against the poor and infirm getting heath care what does that make you? :(
It was honorable for you to not protest in honor of our troops! :dblthumbup:
But if you were for the war, but against the poor and infirm getting heath care what does that make you? :(
Evil.
In my view supporting the troops = supporting the war. The US and British military is a volunteer force. No soldier serving there is doing so against his will. If they were truly against the war they would mutiny, and the "we don't like what we're doing but we were just following orders" defense was tried at nuremburg in 1946. It didn't work for the Germans, why should the US and Britain be any different?
What does this bill have to do with the war in Iraq?
Is this not obvious?
They have much in Common.
Both Health Care and overseas Murdering are consuming vast amounts of Public money.
every citizen of any given country that goes to war and provides health care works each and every day for both of these causes.
Z
Is this not obvious?
They have much in Common.
Both Health Care and overseas Murdering are consuming vast amounts of Public money.
every citizen of any given country that goes to war and provides health care works each and every day for both of these causes.
Z
This is why the only "innocents" in a democracy are non-taxpayers and/or those who vote for parties that are not commited to neo-imperialism.
But if you were for the war, but against the poor and infirm getting heath care what does that make you? :(
Evil... or simply misinformed, or "brainwashed".
Some people actually believe that war (murder, theft, destruction and chaos) is a good thing.
Even tho the words I used in brackets to describe war are actually quite accurate, these types of people that believe in war will be infuriated to read those words, because they have been taught that war is essentially a good thing.
They have been misguided... perhaps their family has made a living in the military industry, or some of their friends have gone to war.
These people are not necessarily "Evil". They believe that war is a good thing, as silly as it may sound. Perhaps they have been convinced by propaganda that war saves the USA way of life, or citizens Lives.
As our cultures combine and we grow as a society views change and mental revolutions take place.
The easy thing to say is "Republicans are Evil" and I have been saying it for years.
But the former explanation is more sensible, and less destructive, hence essentially more constructive in the end.
Z
ranger2112
07-07-2010, 09:58
u pay a premium...
but some of the costs are covered by the government?
so why do other people not also deserve to have some government help?
Z
because the government doesnt have any money. IT IS OUR OWN MONEY. that is the part that makes me laugh my *** off. everyone has their hand out and dont realize it is coming from someone else pocket. this system works as long as someone is able to be taxed.
as to Dogma's insurance, it is up to us as a society to assist the less fortunate. it is not up to us to sit around and allow the government to foot the bill. This bill is not about health care for everyone, it is about control, PERIOD.
Our health system is fine. we do need INSURANCE regulation and stop the crazy rates, but not govt run.
every country that has gone to socialist health care is in deep mess. they have begun to require payments for certain things they didnt before because they are broke.
leaders and dignitaries of other countries come to the USA for major procedures because our system encourages innovation, therefore getting the best health care period.
keep your socialism, i will fight for my Republic.
because the government doesnt have any money. IT IS OUR OWN MONEY. that is the part that makes me laugh my *** off. everyone has their hand out and dont realize it is coming from someone else pocket. this system works as long as someone is able to be taxed.
as to Dogma's insurance, it is up to us as a society to assist the less fortunate. it is not up to us to sit around and allow the government to foot the bill. This bill is not about health care for everyone, it is about control, PERIOD.
Our health system is fine. we do need INSURANCE regulation and stop the crazy rates, but not govt run.
every country that has gone to socialist health care is in deep mess. they have begun to require payments for certain things they didnt before because they are broke.
leaders and dignitaries of other countries come to the USA for major procedures because our system encourages innovation, therefore getting the best health care period.
keep your socialism, i will fight for my Republic.
Rely on "society" to sort out healthcare/welfare and you might as well round up the poor into camps. The NHS is far from perfect but US style healthcare is obscene.
ranger2112
07-08-2010, 15:17
our "obscene" health care has made bigger strides and breakthroughs than any other country. The pharmacutical companies, however, need a good shakedown. there issue is there is more money in treatment as opposed to a cure. i do agree that situation needs to be worked through. i do not and will not be FORCED by my govt to purchase health insurance they will not be forced to participate in.
our "obscene" health care has made bigger strides and breakthroughs than any other country. The pharmacutical companies, however, need a good shakedown. there issue is there is more money in treatment as opposed to a cure. i do agree that situation needs to be worked through. i do not and will not be FORCED by my govt to purchase health insurance they will not be forced to participate in.
I don't doubt that US hospitals have the best treatment available. The problem is that anyone without insurance is screwed when it comes to healthcare, and if the stories I've heard are true, even people with insurance get screwed by the companies. Forcing people to buy insurance would be ok IF the insurance firms were similarly forced to pay out when someone makes a claim (except for cosmetic stuff). My solution would be the forced nationalisation of every insurance firm by the government, resulting in a single, not-for-profit program for the entire country. I would still make people pay for plastic surgery apart from extreme cases like disfigurement or major burns, abortion and other non-essential treatment.
Our health system is fine.
every country that has gone to socialist health care is in deep mess. they have begun to require payments for certain things they didnt before because they are broke.
Is this man trying to be sarcastic and funny? LOL because he is very much... I hope he is not serious... I wonder if he has ever been to the USA... and has he ever heard of places of Canada, UK, or Finland?
I suggest this man goes to school, before he ends up perma-ignorant like so many americans are.
ranger2112
07-08-2010, 18:56
I am fairly well read and have look at the issue from both sides. I agree our system is in need of repair, however, adopting a system that is failing in other countries does not strike me as smart.
Before we buy into single-payer health care systems like Canada’s and the United Kingdom’s, we might want to do a bit of research. The Vancouver, British Columbia-based Fraser Institute annually publishes “Waiting Your Turn.” Its 2006 edition gives waiting times, by treatments, from a person’s referral by a general practitioner to treatment by a specialist. The shortest waiting time was for oncology (4.9 weeks). The longest waiting time was for orthopedic surgery (40.3 weeks), followed by plastic surgery (35.4 weeks) and neurosurgery (31.7 weeks).
As reported in the June 28 National Center for Policy Analysis’ “Daily Policy Digest,” Britain’s Department of Health recently acknowledged that one in eight patients waits more than a year for surgery. France’s failed health care system resulted in the deaths of 13,000 people, mostly of dehydration, during the heat spell of 2003. Hospitals stopped answering the phones, and ambulance attendants told people to fend for themselves.
I don’t think most Americans would like more socialized medicine in our country. By the way, I have absolutely no problem with people wanting socialism. My problem is when they want to drag me into it.
ranger2112
07-08-2010, 19:02
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy, its inherent value is the equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
Like I said, the NHS isn't perfect. but then again waiting times aren't everything either. I'd rather wait a year for surgery, and not be massively in debt at the end of it, than get it done straight away and be bankrupt. Assuming it wasn't life threatening but that's another matter.
The problem with "not wanting socialism forced on you" is that it can't work unless everyone gets involved. As Marx said "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". Not everyone can look out for themselves, so either they are helped by the government or they are left to rot. Any country which won't look after it's most vulnerable really can't be called civilised.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy, its inherent value is the equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
Is there a date on that? he was probably referring to the Soviet Union rather than western style socialism. Churchill was a fanatical anti-communist.
ranger2112
07-08-2010, 19:19
Like I said, the NHS isn't perfect. but then again waiting times aren't everything either. I'd rather wait a year for surgery, and not be massively in debt at the end of it, than get it done straight away and be bankrupt. Assuming it wasn't life threatening but that's another matter.
The problem with "not wanting socialism forced on you" is that it can't work unless everyone gets involved. As Marx said "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". Not everyone can look out for themselves, so either they are helped by the government or they are left to rot. Any country which won't look after it's most vulnerable really can't be called civilised.
helping your fellow man is paramount to most citizens of the nation. It is helping the moochers and slackers that bothers me, however, that is another conversation.
My biggest issue is my govt telling me I HAVE TO get this insurance or be fined(among other issues with the 2k plus bill)
If I do not want insurance, that is my right as a citizen of this Republic. Our politicians have forgotten this. There are parts of this bill I like and think would benefit our country....regulation of frivolis law suits, thus decreasing a physicians financial obligations(((personally, u screw up bad enough, u just do not get the chance to do it again, either loss of license or imprisonment or both)))))
regulation of INSURANCE COMPANIES and allowing interstate commerce would solve most of our issues. allow them to sell in all 50 states and capitalism at its best would ensure cheaper rates and better customer interaction. a little regulation of pharmacutical companies would not hurt either.
again, i am not against fixing the problems, however, a sweeping "government controlled" system with forced participation bugs and scares the hell out of me. has anyone seen our federal govt handle anything well and withing the agreed upon cost parameters? Do you really want these "pork focused, criminals in charge of this? do you really want to give up this much of your freedom? people screamed about GW and his administration listening in on a few phone convos in order to track terrorism and now we give them power over 1/6th of our economy with the final say in who is a priority in getting medical help and who is a@@ out? give them the ability to go straight into our checking and savings and take what THEY deem is necessary for our "universal health care"
be frightened Americans, be very frightened. our way of life is ending rapidly
ranger2112
07-08-2010, 19:22
Will
did u miss me? LMAO
helping your fellow man is paramount to most citizens of the nation. It is helping the moochers and slackers that bothers me, however, that is another conversation.
My biggest issue is my govt telling me I HAVE TO get this insurance or be fined(among other issues with the 2k plus bill)
If I do not want insurance, that is my right as a citizen of this Republic. Our politicians have forgotten this. There are parts of this bill I like and think would benefit our country....regulation of frivolis law suits, thus decreasing a physicians financial obligations(((personally, u screw up bad enough, u just do not get the chance to do it again, either loss of license or imprisonment or both)))))
regulation of INSURANCE COMPANIES and allowing interstate commerce would solve most of our issues. allow them to sell in all 50 states and capitalism at its best would ensure cheaper rates and better customer interaction. a little regulation of pharmacutical companies would not hurt either.
again, i am not against fixing the problems, however, a sweeping "government controlled" system with forced participation bugs and scares the hell out of me. has anyone seen our federal govt handle anything well and withing the agreed upon cost parameters? Do you really want these "pork focused, criminals in charge of this? do you really want to give up this much of your freedom? people screamed about GW and his administration listening in on a few phone convos in order to track terrorism and now we give them power over 1/6th of our economy with the final say in who is a priority in getting medical help and who is a@@ out? give them the ability to go straight into our checking and savings and take what THEY deem is necessary for our "universal health care"
be frightened Americans, be very frightened. our way of life is ending rapidly
What about those that want insurance (or reasonable healthcare) but can't afford it?
Not being an American, I can't comment on the rest, but some would argue the American "way of life" ended in 1861, and not because of the Confederacy.
Will
did u miss me? LMAO
hehe, I had Z to keep me busy:P
ranger2112
07-08-2010, 19:28
we currently have "charity hospitals" in place. i have used these in my leaner financial days and got excellent care.
we currently have "charity hospitals" in place. i have used these in my leaner financial days and got excellent care.
I can't imagine there are all that many of these, certainly not enough to cover everyone that needs them.
ranger2112
07-08-2010, 19:30
hehe, I had Z to keep me busy:P
sweet
ranger2112
07-08-2010, 19:32
I can't imagine there are all that many of these, certainly not enough to cover everyone that needs them.
agreed, however, as stated earlier even the countries with UHC have issues with helping everyone who needs them. given a choice of UHC and waiting with the inept govt running the show or private health care and better quality of care with heavy pocket padding, i take the latter
ranger2112
07-08-2010, 19:34
if you want a clue how our govt would fare running the health care system, ask any veteran who has gone to a VA hospital. a very grim picture i can assure you
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