View Full Version : Fact or Fiction?
Disorder
03-23-2010, 21:42
In
1952 President
Truman established one day a year as a
"National
Day of
Prayer."
In 1988,
President Reagan designated the
First Thursday in May of each year as the National Day of
Prayer.
In June 2007,
(then) Presidential
Candidate Barack Obama declared that the
USA
Was no longer a
Christian nation.
This year
President Obama, canceled the
21st annual National Day of Prayer ceremony at the White
House under the rouse
Of "not wanting to offend anyone"
On September 25,
2009 from 4 am until 7
pm, a National Day of Prayer for the Muslim religion was
Held on Capitol Hill,
Beside the White House. There were over 50,000 Muslims that
Day in DC.
I guess it
Doesn't matter if "Christians"
Are offended by this event -
We obviously
Don't count as "anyone"
Anymore.
The direction
This country is headed
Should strike fear in the heart of every Christian.
Especially knowing that the
Muslim religion believes that if Christians cannot be
Converted they should be
Annihilated
This is not a
Rumor - Go to the website
To confirm this info:
( http://www.islamoncapitolhill.com/ )
Soviet Russia
03-24-2010, 01:15
Muslim religion believes that if Christians cannot be
Converted they should be
Annihilated
This is a fiction. Muslim religion names Christians and Jews as the "People of the Book", which means Muslims think their (Christians', Jews' and Muslims') is the same God. Thats why its a fiction, because a Muslim country is supposed to have Christian locals as well.
If you look at the demographics, many Muslim countries today (regardless of their development & human rights level) have considerable Christian, Buddhist and atheist populations. eg Kazakhistan, Malaysia, Syria, Turkey, Bosnia, Kosovo, even Iran.
alot of these seem truthful until the last 2 or 3
I could see Obama or any other sane individual declaring that USA is not a Christian nation, because it is not.
USA is a nation of many religions, much like Canada, and most other developed nations. USA is a nation in which people are free to do what that want as long as they do not hurt each other. (or so it is meant to be)
It would be rude to declare USA a Christian nation, because there are so many people that do not practice organized religion.
All this being said, I would like to add the following:
The type of hate and slander promoted in this thread and the Link that Disorder posted at the end of his post has a use.
The more people read this type of thing, the more they will realize that Christianity and all other types of organized religions are Wrong.
a century ago these types of hurtful words and attacks may have scared people, but now they serve to open peoples eyes.
:think::
Thanks to people like Disorder and the people that create sites like http://www.islamoncapitolhill.com/ there will be far fewer christians in the coming decades, and far fewer people will be interested in teaching their children about false gods that hate and discriminate.
Good stuff!
Z
Soviet Russia
03-24-2010, 14:53
I do not share Z's ideas on religion but I totally agree with his post above.
People calling Islam as a threat (Islamophobia) are actually cause to Christianism to be seem as a religion against freedom.
We already know what'll happen if that website were a Persian site about the Christians taking over the state...
It'd be against freedom, right? So it is..
Disorder
03-24-2010, 19:05
Thanks to people like Disorder and the people that create sites like http://www.islamoncapitolhill.com/ there will be far fewer christians in the coming decades, and far fewer people will be interested in teaching their children about false gods that hate and discriminate.
Z
I asked a simple question, Fact or Fiction, I knew how easily I could draw you out and make a horse out of you... :knight:
You have no clue what I teach my child, as for this post makes no reference as to what I think or believe...
Thanks for the laugh!!! lol
btw Z, You sure are quick to place false judgement.
This is not fiction...Id suggest you americans to check G.Wilders` research.
The koran talks about muslims and non-believers...so in fact they deny other religions.
@soviet.....youve been to Iran??
@z
It would be rude to declare USA a Christian nation, because there are so many people that do not practice organized religion.
How do you think the USA started 200 years ago?
I asked a simple question, Fact or Fiction, I knew how easily I could draw you out and make a horse out of you... :knight:
You have no clue what I teach my child, as for this post makes no reference as to what I think or believe...
Thanks for the laugh!!! lol
btw Z, You sure are quick to place false judgement.
laughing is good.
Z
This is not fiction...Id suggest you americans to check G.Wilders` research.
The koran talks about muslims and non-believers...so in fact they deny other religions.
@soviet.....youve been to Iran??
@z How do you think the USA started 200 years ago?
I am unsure, but I'd like to be educated.
however it was founded 200 years ago is hardly relevant now, since the development of science and freedoms have allowed progression in thought, culture, and politics.
Z
USA is a nation in which people are free to do what that want as long as they do not hurt each other. (or so it is meant to be)
This is directly contradictory to what you have been saying for the last several years. You believe that the people are not free to do as they please as long as it doens't hurt anyone, you believe that the government should dictate whatthe people do and what they get. Makle up your mind, Z
Soviet Russia
03-25-2010, 01:59
This is not fiction...Id suggest you americans to check G.Wilders` research.
The koran talks about muslims and non-believers...so in fact they deny other religions.
@soviet.....youve been to Iran??
Nope, I've never been in Iran. It was just an example.
But I read all holy books including Quran. And it doesn't talk about "Muslims vs non-believers" I could say that it does not just see the world as Muslims and others. There, it mentions about Muslims (doesn't Bible do that also?) but also Jews and Christians (people of the Book), fake-Muslims (people who do look like Muslims), pagans as I could remember.
I do not know much about the Islamic society law; however, I am very sure that Christians & Jews are accepted as citizens in an ideal (non-corrupted) Islamic state. Also, each Christian church and Jews had autonomy. They were granted with extreme religious freedom unfortunately which does not exist today anywhere among the world. Each religious society within the state (eg Ottoman State) had their own unique private law rules and courts; their own religious leaders (who were kind of ministers).
**
What I think is, some people are trying hard to grow hate between Muslims and Christians and Jews.
Disorder
03-25-2010, 06:41
What I think is, some people are trying hard to grow hate between Muslims and Christians and Jews.
I wish everyone could just mind their own and get along!
man will truly be free when he breaks from the shackles of religion....
and politics
**
What I think is, some people are trying hard to grow hate between Muslims and Christians and Jews.
This is exactly correct.
Just as the Christian bible can be interpreted in different ways, the Holy Quran can also be as well.
If you are a violence Us vs. Them minded individual then you will find words of conflict.
When the Quran speaks of fighting "non-believers" I think that would be people who wage war and take advantage of other people.
I could not see it being christians because christians are "believers".
I have not read the Quran, but I have read the Bible, and there are some just as harsh words in there could be taken as promoting aggressive behavior as well, I can quote them if you ask.
Z
I wish everyone could just mind their own and get along!
Thats nice to hear.
If this is how you feel then why do you post links to such sites as the one on your original post?
That link sees to be promoting conflict within your own country by separation of thought.
Z
Disorder
03-25-2010, 19:53
Thats nice to hear.
If this is how you feel then why do you post links to such sites as the one on your original post?
That link sees to be promoting conflict within your own country by separation of thought.
Z
Z... I didn't even click on that link, I hardly ever click on links that are attached to my emails. Thats why I posted here to see what the peoples take would be.
Islam is a dire threat to Western Civilisation, especially in Europe. Anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to study history more.
The whole of the middle east was christian until the rise of Islam. Then the muslims invaded and either forcibly converted, killed or drove out most of the christians. The few that remained became "Dhimmi" or second class citizens in the Islamic Caliphate. This was the reason for the Crusades, not some psychotic christians on a killing spree.
Not content with this, they then invaded Spain, conquered most of it and created the Almohad Kingdom of Al-Andalus. An Islamic army then marched into France where it was defeated at the Battle of Tours by Charles Martel, the grandfather of Charlemagne.
After this there was a state of roughly cold war between Christians and Muslims, except in the east where the Byzantine Empire was slowly worn down by both Islam and Catholic countries, until in 1453 the Turks captured Constantinople and left the whole of Europe wide open to conquest. It wasn't until 200 years later at the siege of Vienna that they were truly stopped, though the battle of Lepanto before this put a dent in their plans. Slowly, the Ottoman Empire was rolled back but it didn't collapse fully until WW1. Even as late as that, they were killing christians (Armenian Genocide) which the turkish government denies to this day.
To put it shortly, I do not trust so-called "Moderate Muslims" one inch. They will behave themselves as long as they are in the minority, but should they ever take power in a European state it will be a living hell for christians (and athiests).
Islam is a dire threat to Western Civilisation, especially in Europe. Anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to study history more.
The whole of the middle east was christian until the rise of Islam. Then the muslims invaded and either forcibly converted, killed or drove out most of the christians. The few that remained became "Dhimmi" or second class citizens in the Islamic Caliphate. This was the reason for the Crusades, not some psychotic christians on a killing spree.
Not content with this, they then invaded Spain, conquered most of it and created the Almohad Kingdom of Al-Andalus. An Islamic army then marched into France where it was defeated at the Battle of Tours by Charles Martel, the grandfather of Charlemagne.
After this there was a state of roughly cold war between Christians and Muslims, except in the east where the Byzantine Empire was slowly worn down by both Islam and Catholic countries, until in 1453 the Turks captured Constantinople and left the whole of Europe wide open to conquest. It wasn't until 200 years later at the siege of Vienna that they were truly stopped, though the battle of Lepanto before this put a dent in their plans. Slowly, the Ottoman Empire was rolled back but it didn't collapse fully until WW1. Even as late as that, they were killing christians (Armenian Genocide) which the turkish government denies to this day.
To put it shortly, I do not trust so-called "Moderate Muslims" one inch. They will behave themselves as long as they are in the minority, but should they ever take power in a European state it will be a living hell for christians (and athiests).
History has its place Will, but today is a new age, every generation brings new thought, and changes circumstances.
You can not use the history of a religion to define the people that practice it today.
Half of my greater family are Catholics, but they are Not witch hunting murdering superstitious people.
I myself am against all organized religion.
Spirituality is a personal thing.
Z
History has its place Will, but today is a new age, every generation brings new thought, and changes circumstances.
You can not use the history of a religion to define the people that practice it today.
Half of my greater family are Catholics, but they are Not witch hunting murdering superstitious people.
I myself am against all organized religion.
Spirituality is a personal thing.
Z
Z, the Puritans, who were the ones doing the witch hunting, were PROTESTANT. They were fundamentally anti-Catholic. :)
History has its place Will, but today is a new age, every generation brings new thought, and changes circumstances.
You can not use the history of a religion to define the people that practice it today.
Half of my greater family are Catholics, but they are Not witch hunting murdering superstitious people.
I myself am against all organized religion.
Spirituality is a personal thing.
Z
In the middle east, many think of the crusades not as historical events long past, but something that continues to this day. In the minds of many muslims, they might as well have happened yesterday. Trying to move on from history is all well and good, but it is a two way street and Europe cannot let it's guard down.
Z, the Puritans, who were the ones doing the witch hunting, were PROTESTANT. They were fundamentally anti-Catholic. :)
The inquisition did it's share of witch hunting and they were as catholic as it gets:)
Soviet Russia
03-26-2010, 14:55
This is a little bit long, but I strongly recommend you guys to read.
@Will
No surprise, you haven't changed a bit :)
But if we count the total amounts of killings, 'Christian' countries can beat the rest of the world (including the historic civilizations) on amount of civilian killings.
The problem here is, we always consider them as "Muslims" without having a deep investigation on their ideals, personal and ideologic backgrounds..
Will claimed that the conquest of Turks, Spain by Arabs, Middle East blabla were done by Muslims.. However, none of us call Nazi Germany's mass-murders as "Christians done it" or France's war crimes in Africa, colonization of China, America, Australia... Britain did not go to India for touristic purposes..
We don't call those 'Christian' (but they were definitely Christian societies) but we easy tag any Muslim-background-involved war as "Muslims did it".
No. That is definitely not fair.
As for the Middle East, everyone knows that that region only had 3 peaceful era:
First, when it was being ruled by the prophets of Israel.
Second, when it was being ruled by the earliest Islamic rulers.
Third, the Ottoman rule, after the Crusaders.
You are free to ask that to anyone. And also note that, it was Ottomans who let the Jews return to Middle East not the Crusaders. Also (I studied some Ottoman history, not much) it is well known that Ottomans let all Christian churches stay in Jerusalem; and gave them total autonomy.
Maybe you do not know, but even today; the relationship and legal dividends of holy 'duties' among those Churches are being done by the Ottoman system. Neither Britain nor Israel changed the system, because it works pretty well.
Armenian Genocide issue is a different problem; because the rulers of the Ottoman Empire at that era were not Islamists. The Three Pashas and their government were under heavy German/Prussian influence; and they were trying to remove religion out of the law system. We can call that, their actions against Armenians were not religious but political; since the Armenians were sided with Britain/Russia and that was a threat to the Ottomans/Germany/Austria-Hungary alliance.
Will, WWI did not demolish Ottomans only; but it destroyed the last remaining empires of the world: German Empire, Turkish Empire, Russian Empire, Austrian Empire. We can say; WWI was a conflict between the 'New World Powers' and the 'Old World Powers'. Unlike WWII, there were no extremists and radicals (such as fascists or communists). WWI was totally political, and if we name a side as the 'radicals', it'd be the Allies :D They were trying to change the world, while Central Powers wanted to preserve it. If the Central Powers were to win the war; today's world would be totally different (by the means of economy, state regimes, political stiuations)
@Z
You are definitely right. What writes in Quran is, "not to touch any non-Muslim" if they are not trying to use force or taking hostile actions against. And no matter what the stiuation is, no one can harm the women and children.
However, unfortunately, due to dirty politic reasons, groups such as al-Quaida, try to tag Islam over their names, to gain support. I can say, the Western world also has a guilt, because during the most of the 19th and 20th century, Turkish state was the only Muslim state of the world, which means the rest of the Muslims were colonized. That led them to be less developed, they grew hate and blamed the West for everything.
I mean, if there were a strong Muslim (or Muslim majority) nation today (maybe Turkey is the closest candidate for that); the Muslim population of the world would be more relaxed, since they would have a strong power to rely on instead of extremists or Iran.
This summer, I've travelled to Syria and I saw that people there, especially the educated youth; trusts Turkey a lot and they see Turkey's soft power and diplomatic skills as a chance of "peace" for the region.
C'mon, we have to realise that those people are also human and they also love, get sad, cry, laugh as you do. Religion is just a part of their lives and they also would love to live in peace and dialogue.
@Will again
Did you know that, Ottomans were the #1 economical support behind the protestans against the Holy Rome / Germany?
This is a little bit long, but I strongly recommend you guys to read.
@Will
No surprise, you haven't changed a bit :)
But if we count the total amounts of killings, 'Christian' countries can beat the rest of the world (including the historic civilizations) on amount of civilian killings.
The problem here is, we always consider them as "Muslims" without having a deep investigation on their ideals, personal and ideologic backgrounds..
Will claimed that the conquest of Turks, Spain by Arabs, Middle East blabla were done by Muslims.. However, none of us call Nazi Germany's mass-murders as "Christians done it" or France's war crimes in Africa, colonization of China, America, Australia... Britain did not go to India for touristic purposes..
We don't call those 'Christian' (but they were definitely Christian societies) but we easy tag any Muslim-background-involved war as "Muslims did it".
No. That is definitely not fair.
As for the Middle East, everyone knows that that region only had 3 peaceful era:
First, when it was being ruled by the prophets of Israel.
Second, when it was being ruled by the earliest Islamic rulers.
Third, the Ottoman rule, after the Crusaders.
You are free to ask that to anyone. And also note that, it was Ottomans who let the Jews return to Middle East not the Crusaders. Also (I studied some Ottoman history, not much) it is well known that Ottomans let all Christian churches stay in Jerusalem; and gave them total autonomy.
Maybe you do not know, but even today; the relationship and legal dividends of holy 'duties' among those Churches are being done by the Ottoman system. Neither Britain nor Israel changed the system, because it works pretty well.
Armenian Genocide issue is a different problem; because the rulers of the Ottoman Empire at that era were not Islamists. The Three Pashas and their government were under heavy German/Prussian influence; and they were trying to remove religion out of the law system. We can call that, their actions against Armenians were not religious but political; since the Armenians were sided with Britain/Russia and that was a threat to the Ottomans/Germany/Austria-Hungary alliance.
Will, WWI did not demolish Ottomans only; but it destroyed the last remaining empires of the world: German Empire, Turkish Empire, Russian Empire, Austrian Empire. We can say; WWI was a conflict between the 'New World Powers' and the 'Old World Powers'. Unlike WWII, there were no extremists and radicals (such as fascists or communists). WWI was totally political, and if we name a side as the 'radicals', it'd be the Allies :D They were trying to change the world, while Central Powers wanted to preserve it. If the Central Powers were to win the war; today's world would be totally different (by the means of economy, state regimes, political stiuations)
@Will again
Did you know that, Ottomans were the #1 economical support behind the protestans against the Holy Rome / Germany?
I really don't see how you can call Nazi Germany a "christian" society. Most leading nazis were hostile to christianity (Himmler in particular). Germans themselves may have been christian but the leadership wasn't operating on any religious factors. They even had muslim SS battalions.
Britain's conquest of India was for commercial reasons. While there were missionaries, they caused a lot of problems leading to the 1857 Mutiny, after which they were effectively banned from operating outside of a couple of towns.
As for the ottomans, the germans during WW1 called on the Turkish Sultan to declare a jihad against the "infidel british" which if it had been handled better could have been devastating, considering the numbers of muslims under british rule at the time.
I really don't see how you can call the central powers conservative when it was the germans who sent lenin to russia with the express purpose of plunging it into chaos.
The Ottoman Empire was fairly tolerant by the standards of the time (except the armenian massacre), but there was still a strong Islamic element to their actions. The way they turned the Haga Sophia from a cathedral to a huge mosque is evidence of this, not to mention the kidnapping of christian children to turn into janissaries.
Soviet Russia
03-27-2010, 03:44
Kidnapping? We're talking of a age that being a soldier was the highest position that a villager can have. Many of those 'kidnapped' children became the top state officers, including the Grand Vizier (2nd man of the state).
Haha, right, Germans let Lenin go back to Russia; but that was not for they support his ideas :) And I see no difference between WWII Germany's and WWI Turkey's "view on religion" since most of the rulers were not any religious.
very interesting comments here... Soviet Russia you go a long way to explain your point of view, and it makes sense.
Will (while making some interesting remarks) always wants to separate people, and to make believe things about vast majorities of populations, often about race, this time about religion.
you can not judge a person or group of people by their religion.
Z
very interesting comments here... Soviet Russia you go a long way to explain your point of view, and it makes sense.
Will (while making some interesting remarks) always wants to separate people, and to make believe things about vast majorities of populations, often about race, this time about religion.
you can not judge a person or group of people by their religion.
Z
Z, you cannot deny that the philosophies and doctrines of some religions can vary wildly, and this can and does lead to very different behavior from adherents of these. You don't see me attacking Buddhists or Sikhs here. Why? because neither of these is particularly aggressive.
Don't get me wrong. I don't view Christianity as superior to Islam from any kind of theological standpoint, but I was raised as a Christian and it happens to be the state religion of my country, so I have a certain cultural bias. I am an atheist who considers christianity more compatible with Britain from a cultural standpoint, not a religious one.
Soviet Russia
03-29-2010, 10:14
Is not that mosty because that Buddhist or Sikh majority cultures had never challenged Germany/France/Britain before..
I see your points Will, and indeed, perhaps christianity fits british culture better.
I am glad to see that you understand your own Bias.
Z
Is not that mosty because that Buddhist or Sikh majority cultures had never challenged Germany/France/Britain before..
Britain fought Tibetian rebels who were buddhist at one point. And Sikhs have and still do form some of the most effective combat units of the British Army (Gurkhas)
When I say "aggressive" I mean that neither of those religions is particularly evangelistic. They aren't overly focused on spreading their faith unlike christianity or islam, which often ends up being done by force.
Soviet Russia
04-01-2010, 01:33
They aren't overly focused on spreading their faith unlike christianity or islam, which often ends up being done by force.
Islamic states' idea was 'liberating' those lands from their feudal lords, quite like communism or today's democracy-bringer-USA :) It is often misunderstood since people think all those wars were done to spread religion; however in an Islamic state (for example Ottomans), there is no pressure over other religions. Ottomans actually tried to 'unite' all God-centered religions (Islam, various Christian churches and Judaism) live. Thus, they made their capital Constantinapol as the city that the leaders of Sunni Islam, Orthodox Christians (Greek, Armenian and Bulgarian Churches) and Judaism. They'd probably do the same with Pope (bringing him and his church to Constantinapol) but as we know, they could not.
Islamic states' idea was 'liberating' those lands from their feudal lords, quite like communism or today's democracy-bringer-USA :) It is often misunderstood since people think all those wars were done to spread religion; however in an Islamic state (for example Ottomans), there is no pressure over other religions. Ottomans actually tried to 'unite' all God-centered religions (Islam, various Christian churches and Judaism) live. Thus, they made their capital Constantinapol as the city that the leaders of Sunni Islam, Orthodox Christians (Greek, Armenian and Bulgarian Churches) and Judaism. They'd probably do the same with Pope (bringing him and his church to Constantinapol) but as we know, they could not.
Christians under Muslim rule were second-class citizens however.
I have something ::topic:: here!
If you guys are this smart, why are you playing NW? lol
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