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Rassputtin
06-12-2008, 14:43
I have been discussing this with Grim Digital quite a bit, and in doing so I can not help but be overwhelmingly reminded of when I first started playing this game years ago.

Let me start by saying that the first set I ever played was the most exhilirating, most fun set that I ever played. See I was a noob. I didn't come on the forums, I happend by the game site by clicking to it through one of those voting sites. I was looking for a good game to play as planetarion went totally pay to play, and planetarion kind of sucked as there was 1 huge alliance amongst all the planetarion "vets" called fury. And they basically made all the rules and enforced their will and if you werent LEET enough to join them the game was no fun.

So I went to wow. I signed up, I logged in used my turns and logged out. I logged back in the next day to find I was attacked..........and someone took some of my land. I was unaware of the rules and since I was peacefully expanding this meant war. So I attacked him back. A few standard attacks, a handful of AA's and quite a few AR's. That'll teach him I thought. The next day I logged back in and he had done the same to me.

I tallied the losses and built more troops and struck back, all the while thinking this game is awesome, and I'm gonna kill this guy before he could kill me. So he and I went back and forth most of the entire set beating the snot out of eachother over and over again, neither able to kill the other.

Those few weeks, when myself and this noob had the excitement of a personal war, inflicting massive damage on the other, then logging in to see how well we were struck back were the most exciting I've ever played.

Imagine that..... Two noobs beating the hell out of eachother = fun.

I still remember the state name....... "DUNE", if your playing now or remember that PM me.

I didn't and I imagine he didnt know any unwritten rules, or retal policies or any of that garbage. If he had or had been in a nation I would have been killed. And none of the "vets" stepped in to say hey these are the rules..... bla, bla, bla, bla, bla. Because it didnt affect them.

At the end of that set, I decided to check out the forums. The game was still young and small then, basically the exact same way it is now. Low member count, trying to grow. What I discovered was that there was an "original click" made up of Calvin and some others. Who I believe had been playing since literal day 1.

These original players had all kinds of "unwritten rules" and policies that if not followed they would impose thier will and force you into following, and there was really only one man standing against them. His name was Grendal Khan. In a nutshell he told them they could take there "elite vet" status and stick it in thier arse. He was gonna play whatever way he wanted too and didn't care what they thought, or what they called it, or how they felt about it.

And thats what GK was all about. Not conforming to what the "elite vets" decided was acceptable. Not conforming to how the "elite vets" thought the game should be played. Not conforming to the "gentlemans" rules or "accepted retal" policies the "elite vets" deemed appropriate.

Anyway, i got on the forums after my first set and started reading, about whatever he and the "elite vets" were arguing about at the time, and thought "oh great.......... this is planetarion all over again, a group of "elite vets" who dictate how the game is played."

And whats worse is there was alot of ridicule. Alot of talking down to GK myself and other noob players who actually showed interest and posted. Much like there is now. Telling people to not talk above themselves, making fun of them because they are only a 3 man nation. Just basic elite ego snobbishness.

So I sent GK a PM and joined VAL. And for many sets we argued with the "elite vets" about everything on the forum. I began to co-lead with him and one or two others and we began to grow the member count to a decent size. And we attempted to impose whatever crazy policy we came up with at teh time to contradict the "elite vets".

Going so far as someone just pointed out to make a policy against hitting us while we are online. And if you did we would AA you. We stated it, the elite vets tested it, we AA'd them, and they killed us. Before we grew we warred them and they destroyed us, prior to the online AA retal policy.

Basically there was more of them, at the time they had way more experience and try as we might they imposed thier will upon us. All that being said.

A large majority of what GK and I did would now be considered suicide. As that term is thrown about ever so loosely. AA your top state for hitting me online, I'm a suicider. We declare war on you with half as many members and only kill 2 states before we are wiped out, we are suiciders. Make up "OUR OWN OPINIONS, POLICIES AND RULES" and attempt to enforce them, which of course we can't because we are outnumbered by the elite vets 3 to 1, and we are suiciders.

If you think about what todays "standard" of suiciding is, the first few months I played myself, GK, and the entire nation of Valhalla was nothing but suiciders. Is that how all you elite vets remember VAL. Do you remember it as a suicide nation..................................?

No, you don't. You may remember it as a crazy, online AA retal policy toting nation. But you don't remember it as a suicide nation. When in fact, especially in the beginning we were outnumbered every set, outskilled every set and killed alot, but we did it anyway to prove a point. That we will play the way we want, make our own rules, and not conform to the "elite".

After many sets in VAL, I started SH, and ELV with xavior and BLed, got some top ten finishes, broke some AVG NW nation records, got suicided the **** out of and quit playing for a while. And when I say suicided I mean, Calvins buddy Chris, stockpiled a unit type and suicided my balanced state out of the top ten. Hell even Jameswheel hit me at the end of one set to knock me out of the top ten. But if I remember correctly he didnt stockpile, like a suicider, he just had more than me in one area and attacked me a bunch after I was out of turns. Can't remember if it was so he could move up and have my spot or if Calvin or Chris or someone asked him too. Doesn't matter.

After calling him on it and *****ing he gave me the startup strat he used the set he finished first and hadn't been LG'd a single time as a consolation prize. I believe he was playing in MASTA at the time.

All that being said. I have betrayed my roots, and it is obvious that this game NOW is the same thing it was THEN. Only there are some role reversals. Instead of GK knowing how to play and not conforming to what the "elite netters" deem appropriate, and attempting to recruit new players in an attempt to change the game and balance the power away from the "elite netters" and him teaching me how to play.

Its me, not conforming saying I"m going to hit infantry horders, and having all the egomaniacal, elite netters, calling into question my skill and ridiculing me while I try to teach Grim Digital and ::LD:: Grimreapr and some others how to play. And for a bit, I myself was stuck in "elite vet" mode. Telling Grim Digital you can't do that, I won't condone this, this is how you play the game, no thats unacceptable, no Grim thats not accepted by the community...........over and over again.

And he said to me................................

"look man. I'm a new player. And it seems to me that mostly everyone who is playing is an "elite vet", Your brother (LD GRIMREAPR) is a new player and cem is making fun of him on the forum telling him to not talk above himself. Like he's not even on the radar adn shouldn't be allowed to speak at an "elite Vet". ANd you keep telling me all these bull**** rules I have to follow that you and the rest of these elite vets have made up. And to be honest I'm pissed off about it. You's should be afraid of my inability to finish first. But your not, because you have all these stupid rules, and anything I can do already has a label that everyone of you elite vets hates. I'll just get ridiculed and called a suicider.

If cem or anton or anyone makes fun of me on the forums, because I'm new, or attacks me in game or does anything that I deem fighting words.... according to you and the rest of the vets there is nothign I can do about it but sit there all month long with an army I'm not allowed to use and take it.

What is a new player supposed to do? You tell me!!! All you vets can say and do whatever you want because you have big 75 player alliances and those not in the alliance still know the other nation leaders so if you run your mouth enough for me to want to attack you I can't beecause I'll be a suicider. Well isn't that ****ING convenient for you.

I'm only allowed to attack you in a declared war with the same amount of members or I'm a suicider. So you tell me what retaliatory options I have for making someone pay without being ridiculed and called a suicider other than playing for the next year or however long it takes to make friends with enough people who are like minded to not be called a suicider. All the while during that year I can't do anything or I get ridiculed. It's stupid. It makes me not want to play the game.

If I wasn't in GRIM and you talked enough **** that I wanted to hit you and make your state suffer why can't I. I don't have a problem with GRIM I have a problem with you. And I can't kill you singlehandedly any more than you could kill me single handedly. But because I can't kill your whole nation by myself I'm a suicider because I hit the one man in the nation I wanted to hit. If you weren't all a little "click of elite vets" you would all be in the same boat. There wouldn't be super alliances, with other nations allied to the super alliance.

I mean seriously, DAK, USA, EEK and KIHT are all in an alliance. They in turn themselves have alliances with LOR, TNG, WLF, FB and all the other nations. So what does that leave. That leaves any new player that joins and doesn't agree standing alone against every other "elite vet" player in teh game. Which is basically everyone.

I understand your opposition to suiciding on principle, by picking a target at random or stockpiling whereever you are weakest adn hitting a top state for no reason other than to ruin there set. And I can understand why you would be mad about that. But how can you be mad about a single player who has a legitimate beef doing the only thing he can to another state which is attack by himself.

Like it or not but that "version" of suicide brings balance to the game. And that is why Viali and those hate it so much. Because like I said being able to do that you shoudl fear my inability to finish first, instead they all run infantry states fearing no one. Because most of the new players like me are recruited by vets like you who are groomed on all the "elite vet" rules and either forced to follow them or ridiculed for not following them. But I'm telling you that the ability for a new player to do that brings balance to the game and takes some power away from you and the other vets to just do whatever you want."""""""""""""

He went on to say quite a bit more but by that point I wasn't listening anymore, I had already heard enough overwhelmingly good points to remember and think about nothing but else except for when I started Playing. I couldn't take my mind off it. We started playing COD 4 and still I couldn't stop thinking about when I first started playing and the striking similiarities to then and now.

I will never condone, stockpiling units to hit someone for no other reason than to knock them out of the top ten. That to me is suicide. And counterproductive to the game. Your just ruining a set for the sake of ruining a set.

However next set regardless of the numbers I have in my nation, If i have beef with you I'm gonna hit you. I'm gonna set my own policies, rules and ways for myself and my nation to play. I am going back to my roots. If I have beef with you I'm gonna hit you. I don't care if your nation is bigger, or your alliance is stronger, or you can inflict more damage on my nation than mine can inflict on yours. You can call it what you want. I don't care. I will no longer conform to the unwritten rules created to help the "elite vets" stay elite and at the top of the lists without fear.

That being said, this is not an infantry whoring thread so please don't turn it into one. This is not a suicide thread so please don't turn it into one. If you want to flame what I have said, please have the intelligence and courtesy of reading what I've written and responding intelligently to it, instead of just reading the last paragraph and going off on a tangent.

My final question is this......... What is a new nation, new player supposed to do to a retaliate against a vet state, or vet nation that they have beef with that doesn't violate what the "vets" have already determined "fair play". Honestly......... thoughts anyone?

ranger2112
06-12-2008, 15:32
Define beef? someone called u a bad word? or someone tripled u? these incidents can be handled through the FA of the nations involved. now for some time i had a beef with missionary and his nation...they expected the rules to be followed unless u were independent. if you didnt belong to a nation, they (soul) would triple ... quad do whatever without consequence because as a nationless state i had no FA or real way to harm them. If i retalled with w/e i had to inflict harm back and it wasnt part of the rules, they would just kill me.

this is how i see things.

if u want to hit a state, use SA. that is the only thing that will get u their land..any other attacks only harm them with no real benefit to u. if u get hit illegally, then get a retal for the FA of that nation...if u get no satisfaction there, then do whatever u must to get satisfaction.....just going after a state with other than SA because of a beef...unless strictly legit...u are asking to be obliterated. Maybe this is a good time to reopen our discussion of a UN...one rep per nation as a court of appeals so to speak.

L P
06-12-2008, 15:43
Is there a summarized version of this post? I got cross-eyed 1/3 of the way into it.;)

Or could someone just tell me in 20 words or less what this is about?

KLL
06-12-2008, 16:09
Is there a summarized version of this post? I got cross-eyed 1/3 of the way into it.;)

Or could someone just tell me in 20 words or less what this is about?

it basicaly says that people these days don'T read enuogh and thus are not able to fully read a long post like the one jsut made

L P
06-12-2008, 16:17
Cool, Thanks for your help!:thumbup:

Cape
06-12-2008, 16:39
Excellent post Rassputtin :dblthumbup: In all the garbage that goes on people forget this is a game, and besides "no cheating" all the "rules" are just an agreement between players on what's acceptable, well maybe it's time to start playing by no rules at all :w00t: I too remember the excitement of my first state, not knowing what happened on the forums or how to run a strategy, maybe it's time to dump all the scheming and deal making and turn NW into a contest of survival of the fittest. :tomatoes:

Grim Digital
06-12-2008, 16:53
this game is made up of alot of gentlemans rules by the gentlemen these rules protect....... the truth is if i in a 3 man nation attacked a 6 man nation and it didnt effect these gentlemen............they would not even care eneough to call it suicide...........honestly this is fine with me cuz im not a........... gentle man...........

KelpKris
06-12-2008, 17:26
However next set regardless of the numbers I have in my nation, If i have beef with you I'm gonna hit you. I'm gonna set my own policies, rules and ways for myself and my nation to play.
You and your nation is probably going to be killed in order to prevent any damage to "elite vets".

CommunistCapitalism
06-12-2008, 18:42
i agree with you, but help is offered, there are plenty of tutors, and many nations are happy to have new members. This is definetly something that should and will be taken into consideration, but it is unfair to say new players are being completely ignored, as everyone wants a game with more players. Thanks for bringing this to attention tho Rass, i back you 100%

ranger2112
06-12-2008, 18:56
That being said, this is not an infantry whoring thread so please don't turn it into one. This is not a suicide thread so please don't turn it into one. If you want to flame what I have said, please have the intelligence and courtesy of reading what I've written and responding intelligently to it, instead of just reading the last paragraph and going off on a tangent.

My final question is this......... What is a new nation, new player supposed to do to a retaliate against a vet state, or vet nation that they have beef with that doesn't violate what the "vets" have already determined "fair play". Honestly......... thoughts anyone?


rep 4u

Calvin74
06-12-2008, 19:34
this game is made up of alot of gentlemans rules by the gentlemen these rules protect....... the truth is if i in a 3 man nation attacked a 6 man nation and it didnt effect these gentlemen............they would not even care eneough to call it suicide...........honestly this is fine with me cuz im not a........... gentle man...........



that is obviously not true
did you not see all the support garnered by NW when they got threatened?

i am not saying that the rules shouldn't be changed
i have never advocated these rules as permanent
i have always been the 1st to say they were self-serving rules but when you are on top you always do the same thing
rass it was before your time but there was a guy named scav that thought the same thing GK did and that you do
he got some balls and made his own nation to stop us from using this "rules" and through decent play and a little (or a crap ton:P) of cheating he got on top
once he got on top he did the same thing we did
it is just what happens when you get on top
the strong enforce whatever rules they deem fit
however you can't say that these rules are bad for the game
when people followed them and warred for real reasons the game grew to 2k+ people however when everything went to suiciding/stocking wars the game shrank dramatically b/c all the best players got their states ruined simply b/c you don't like the way they play
yes they may have to many of one unit but why war over that? if you have a legit reason then you should knock the crap out of them but if you are doing it to prove a point then you will never get my respect nor will i ever consider you anything but a blight on the game

however i do like rass and think he is a a good player with some mixed up ideas:P
i don't like how he plays but it is his state to do with as he will



btw GK wasn't the saviour you think he was:P
nor was he the 1st person to have these ideas nor was scav there was always someone before them that had these ideas back to the beginning of the game
if you do a little history behind the rules you would also learn they were implemented to help the little guys out and to a point they do that as well.
chaos is never good for a game and a game w/o rules will not last but that is none of my concern anymore i keep waiting for someone to pass the torch onto but no one seems to think beyond their state or playing style that often these days

Calvin74
06-12-2008, 19:36
also any huge state that unfairly picks on a small state or any huge nation that picks on a small nation will lose its top state if i notice it
they have but to ask
or anyone can ask on their behalf

even right now playing inactive (somewhat) i have enough stock to ensure that any top ten player right now would not be in the top ten next time they login.....

Mr President
06-12-2008, 20:01
I have been discussing this with Grim Digital quite a bit, and in doing so I can not help but be overwhelmingly reminded of when I first started playing this game years ago.

Let me start by saying that the first set I ever played was the most exhilirating, most fun set that I ever played. See I was a noob. I didn't come on the forums, I happend by the game site by clicking to it through one of those voting sites. I was looking for a good game to play as planetarion went totally pay to play, and planetarion kind of sucked as there was 1 huge alliance amongst all the planetarion "vets" called fury. And they basically made all the rules and enforced their will and if you werent LEET enough to join them the game was no fun.

So I went to wow. I signed up, I logged in used my turns and logged out. I logged back in the next day to find I was attacked..........and someone took some of my land. I was unaware of the rules and since I was peacefully expanding this meant war. So I attacked him back. A few standard attacks, a handful of AA's and quite a few AR's. That'll teach him I thought. The next day I logged back in and he had done the same to me.

I tallied the losses and built more troops and struck back, all the while thinking this game is awesome, and I'm gonna kill this guy before he could kill me. So he and I went back and forth most of the entire set beating the snot out of eachother over and over again, neither able to kill the other.

Those few weeks, when myself and this noob had the excitement of a personal war, inflicting massive damage on the other, then logging in to see how well we were struck back were the most exciting I've ever played.

Imagine that..... Two noobs beating the hell out of eachother = fun.

I still remember the state name....... "DUNE", if your playing now or remember that PM me.

I didn't and I imagine he didnt know any unwritten rules, or retal policies or any of that garbage. If he had or had been in a nation I would have been killed. And none of the "vets" stepped in to say hey these are the rules..... bla, bla, bla, bla, bla. Because it didnt affect them.

At the end of that set, I decided to check out the forums. The game was still young and small then, basically the exact same way it is now. Low member count, trying to grow. What I discovered was that there was an "original click" made up of Calvin and some others. Who I believe had been playing since literal day 1.

These original players had all kinds of "unwritten rules" and policies that if not followed they would impose thier will and force you into following, and there was really only one man standing against them. His name was Grendal Khan. In a nutshell he told them they could take there "elite vet" status and stick it in thier arse. He was gonna play whatever way he wanted too and didn't care what they thought, or what they called it, or how they felt about it.

And thats what GK was all about. Not conforming to what the "elite vets" decided was acceptable. Not conforming to how the "elite vets" thought the game should be played. Not conforming to the "gentlemans" rules or "accepted retal" policies the "elite vets" deemed appropriate.

Anyway, i got on the forums after my first set and started reading, about whatever he and the "elite vets" were arguing about at the time, and thought "oh great.......... this is planetarion all over again, a group of "elite vets" who dictate how the game is played."

And whats worse is there was alot of ridicule. Alot of talking down to GK myself and other noob players who actually showed interest and posted. Much like there is now. Telling people to not talk above themselves, making fun of them because they are only a 3 man nation. Just basic elite ego snobbishness.

So I sent GK a PM and joined VAL. And for many sets we argued with the "elite vets" about everything on the forum. I began to co-lead with him and one or two others and we began to grow the member count to a decent size. And we attempted to impose whatever crazy policy we came up with at teh time to contradict the "elite vets".

Going so far as someone just pointed out to make a policy against hitting us while we are online. And if you did we would AA you. We stated it, the elite vets tested it, we AA'd them, and they killed us. Before we grew we warred them and they destroyed us, prior to the online AA retal policy.

Basically there was more of them, at the time they had way more experience and try as we might they imposed thier will upon us. All that being said.

A large majority of what GK and I did would now be considered suicide. As that term is thrown about ever so loosely. AA your top state for hitting me online, I'm a suicider. We declare war on you with half as many members and only kill 2 states before we are wiped out, we are suiciders. Make up "OUR OWN OPINIONS, POLICIES AND RULES" and attempt to enforce them, which of course we can't because we are outnumbered by the elite vets 3 to 1, and we are suiciders.

If you think about what todays "standard" of suiciding is, the first few months I played myself, GK, and the entire nation of Valhalla was nothing but suiciders. Is that how all you elite vets remember VAL. Do you remember it as a suicide nation..................................?

No, you don't. You may remember it as a crazy, online AA retal policy toting nation. But you don't remember it as a suicide nation. When in fact, especially in the beginning we were outnumbered every set, outskilled every set and killed alot, but we did it anyway to prove a point. That we will play the way we want, make our own rules, and not conform to the "elite".

After many sets in VAL, I started SH, and ELV with xavior and BLed, got some top ten finishes, broke some AVG NW nation records, got suicided the **** out of and quit playing for a while. And when I say suicided I mean, Calvins buddy Chris, stockpiled a unit type and suicided my balanced state out of the top ten. Hell even Jameswheel hit me at the end of one set to knock me out of the top ten. But if I remember correctly he didnt stockpile, like a suicider, he just had more than me in one area and attacked me a bunch after I was out of turns. Can't remember if it was so he could move up and have my spot or if Calvin or Chris or someone asked him too. Doesn't matter.

After calling him on it and *****ing he gave me the startup strat he used the set he finished first and hadn't been LG'd a single time as a consolation prize. I believe he was playing in MASTA at the time.

All that being said. I have betrayed my roots, and it is obvious that this game NOW is the same thing it was THEN. Only there are some role reversals. Instead of GK knowing how to play and not conforming to what the "elite netters" deem appropriate, and attempting to recruit new players in an attempt to change the game and balance the power away from the "elite netters" and him teaching me how to play.

Its me, not conforming saying I"m going to hit infantry horders, and having all the egomaniacal, elite netters, calling into question my skill and ridiculing me while I try to teach Grim Digital and ::LD:: Grimreapr and some others how to play. And for a bit, I myself was stuck in "elite vet" mode. Telling Grim Digital you can't do that, I won't condone this, this is how you play the game, no thats unacceptable, no Grim thats not accepted by the community...........over and over again.

And he said to me................................

"look man. I'm a new player. And it seems to me that mostly everyone who is playing is an "elite vet", Your brother (LD GRIMREAPR) is a new player and cem is making fun of him on the forum telling him to not talk above himself. Like he's not even on the radar adn shouldn't be allowed to speak at an "elite Vet". ANd you keep telling me all these bull**** rules I have to follow that you and the rest of these elite vets have made up. And to be honest I'm pissed off about it. You's should be afraid of my inability to finish first. But your not, because you have all these stupid rules, and anything I can do already has a label that everyone of you elite vets hates. I'll just get ridiculed and called a suicider.

If cem or anton or anyone makes fun of me on the forums, because I'm new, or attacks me in game or does anything that I deem fighting words.... according to you and the rest of the vets there is nothign I can do about it but sit there all month long with an army I'm not allowed to use and take it.

What is a new player supposed to do? You tell me!!! All you vets can say and do whatever you want because you have big 75 player alliances and those not in the alliance still know the other nation leaders so if you run your mouth enough for me to want to attack you I can't beecause I'll be a suicider. Well isn't that ****ING convenient for you.

I'm only allowed to attack you in a declared war with the same amount of members or I'm a suicider. So you tell me what retaliatory options I have for making someone pay without being ridiculed and called a suicider other than playing for the next year or however long it takes to make friends with enough people who are like minded to not be called a suicider. All the while during that year I can't do anything or I get ridiculed. It's stupid. It makes me not want to play the game.

If I wasn't in GRIM and you talked enough **** that I wanted to hit you and make your state suffer why can't I. I don't have a problem with GRIM I have a problem with you. And I can't kill you singlehandedly any more than you could kill me single handedly. But because I can't kill your whole nation by myself I'm a suicider because I hit the one man in the nation I wanted to hit. If you weren't all a little "click of elite vets" you would all be in the same boat. There wouldn't be super alliances, with other nations allied to the super alliance.

I mean seriously, DAK, USA, EEK and KIHT are all in an alliance. They in turn themselves have alliances with LOR, TNG, WLF, FB and all the other nations. So what does that leave. That leaves any new player that joins and doesn't agree standing alone against every other "elite vet" player in teh game. Which is basically everyone.

I understand your opposition to suiciding on principle, by picking a target at random or stockpiling whereever you are weakest adn hitting a top state for no reason other than to ruin there set. And I can understand why you would be mad about that. But how can you be mad about a single player who has a legitimate beef doing the only thing he can to another state which is attack by himself.

Like it or not but that "version" of suicide brings balance to the game. And that is why Viali and those hate it so much. Because like I said being able to do that you shoudl fear my inability to finish first, instead they all run infantry states fearing no one. Because most of the new players like me are recruited by vets like you who are groomed on all the "elite vet" rules and either forced to follow them or ridiculed for not following them. But I'm telling you that the ability for a new player to do that brings balance to the game and takes some power away from you and the other vets to just do whatever you want."""""""""""""

He went on to say quite a bit more but by that point I wasn't listening anymore, I had already heard enough overwhelmingly good points to remember and think about nothing but else except for when I started Playing. I couldn't take my mind off it. We started playing COD 4 and still I couldn't stop thinking about when I first started playing and the striking similiarities to then and now.

I will never condone, stockpiling units to hit someone for no other reason than to knock them out of the top ten. That to me is suicide. And counterproductive to the game. Your just ruining a set for the sake of ruining a set.

However next set regardless of the numbers I have in my nation, If i have beef with you I'm gonna hit you. I'm gonna set my own policies, rules and ways for myself and my nation to play. I am going back to my roots. If I have beef with you I'm gonna hit you. I don't care if your nation is bigger, or your alliance is stronger, or you can inflict more damage on my nation than mine can inflict on yours. You can call it what you want. I don't care. I will no longer conform to the unwritten rules created to help the "elite vets" stay elite and at the top of the lists without fear.

That being said, this is not an infantry whoring thread so please don't turn it into one. This is not a suicide thread so please don't turn it into one. If you want to flame what I have said, please have the intelligence and courtesy of reading what I've written and responding intelligently to it, instead of just reading the last paragraph and going off on a tangent.

My final question is this......... What is a new nation, new player supposed to do to a retaliate against a vet state, or vet nation that they have beef with that doesn't violate what the "vets" have already determined "fair play". Honestly......... thoughts anyone?

um ok, first i want to say, i don't ever want to hear anyone complain about my long posts again.. I think i have been outdone here! lol

Second, USA is only allies with the Estonians this set. It was a one time deal. I have said this many time, but i will say it again. USA does not ally with other nations. We remain neutral which keeps us free to help anyone we feel needs it for the right reasons.

USA and Dak has always been on the best of terms. We hate to really call it an alliance (even though i have from time to time). Basically we have a great respect for each other and tend to back each other up in times of need.

Honestly, for days now i have done nothing but read posts about how these nations have these alliances and how certain people will play as they want despite "elite vets" opinions.. I don't know why people are feeing this way. I have played this game for 5 or more years now and not once have i ever followed what others feel i should. In USA's younger years there were a few nations who tried to scare us into not doing some things, but we gave it it's due attention and did what WE FELT WAS RIGHT!

Some of you are spending so much time trying to convince us that you could care less of what anyone thinks, that your kinda showing you do care. Why? It's your nation, your state, your time so play how you want. if people don't like it then they will deal with it.

Nobody is just going to say, oh yea i see your point and i promise to change my style of play. We all have different styles of play, which is what makes it fun. Some like to war, some like to net. if a netting nation gets hit, they will retal it.

" doing things like that hurts this game and drives people away" these words right there get tossed around this game way to much. All the years i have played, if i got hit, it ticked me off and we killed the SOB's till they got the point not to mess with us.

And one last point. let's also not forget that the game is still kinda new (well not new, but you know what i mean) people are still getting use to things. Normally when people re-learn a game or get use to something again they tend to start off slower and not just jump right in. People are going to nations they know and are comfortable with. Slowly that is changing.. as we can see by the size of nations.

I'm sorry some have issues with the member size of USA. But we have worked dang hard at getting our nation up and running. It's not like USA was just born yesterday. it's been years! And i'm not just going to tell my members, "well we need to split up to spread things out. Thanks for playing in USA, but so long!" Or better yet, "ok members, for years we have been playing one way with a certain code of ethics, but we need to change that and start more wars to make things fun again".

You all play the way you want to play and stop seeking the approval of everyone else. I know you will say your not, but with all these posts it really looks like you are.

if you want waves in this game then create them. people are not just going to let you kill them and let you get away with it.

ok that is my two cents on the matter.

ranger2112
06-12-2008, 20:52
seems more like 35 cents worth to me, but hey thats me :P

Saunders241
06-12-2008, 22:43
Just adding my 2 cents in. Let me preface this though by saying that I'm by no means a top tier player, just someone who's been around long enough to really see how things go on and know the "gentleman's rules" that are often referenced. That being said...

I have nothing but repect for what Rasputtin and Mr. P. have said, but here's how I look at things. The majority of the "vets" do ruin the game for new players, and it is going to end up running a lot of people off if it doesn't get put in check. Now, before anything gets started, let me respond to Mr. P.'s quote on this....


" doing things like that hurts this game and drives people away" these words right there get tossed around this game way to much. All the years i have played, if i got hit, it ticked me off and we killed the SOB's till they got the point not to mess with us.

Valid point, but what about the smaller states/nations who have basically no chance at touching top tier players? They can either sit and take it, or they can...wait, thats all they can do. If, for example, a DAK player hits a KIHT player with an "illegal" attack, its on like a lightbulb, because its a reasonably fair fight. BUT, if that same DAK player hits, say, a player from DOOM or NW, what can they do to retaliate? They can't. Sure, they can complain on the forums, or go to the FA person for the nation, but in reality, there's nothing that can (or will) be done. Too many alliances, too many nations with "non-aggression pacts", etc. etc. What it has turned into is a game of many with rules dictated by the elite few, with no one able to (or even, from what i've seen, willing to) stand up for the "little guy". Look at the thread Guy started wanting to build a warring nation, and what it turned into. What was an attempt to gather people with the same desires (to war with someone this set) turned into one of the "vets" trashing what guy (and myself, for full disclosure) wanted to do (and trying to label us as suiciders), which didn't involve them or their nation. And what were we able to do to counter this, outside of defending ourselves on the boards? Nothing. 3 or 4 on 20 is fairly bad odds, last time I checked.

Point is, I enjoy this game, as (I'm sure) everyone else here does. I'd like to see it continue to grow and gain more players. But, until this "eliteism" stops and everyone just lets everyone else play without trying to police everyone else, so to speak, I seriously don't see it happening. I can't (or won't) speak for anyone else, but I know that I'm VERY close to leaving because of stuff like this, and I surely can't be the only one.

Mr President
06-13-2008, 00:21
Nice post!

I agree with some of it, but this is what i disagree with the most. You say that smaller nations can't do anything to retal a larger one... I don't understand that lol.

When USA first started we had like 4 members the 2nd set and if illegal hits were done to us i was sending messages stating retals. We didn't have any allies back then. We were on our own in a game that had soooooooo much more chaos in it then this game has had in a long time. Back then there were some large @ss nations with people who didn't give a rats behind about you.

You think it's rough starting out now? Should have tried back then lol..

By our 3rd set we had about 10 members (all noobs) and a nation attacked us left and right and did as they pleased cause they didn't feel we were a threat at all. We set a date that they had to agree to a retal by and if they didn't we were coming in. They laughed at us and told us it wasn't worth getting our whole nation embarrassed and killed.. We thought differently. So we attacked and the battle raged on for weeks and despite all odds, we pulled off a victory! And USA had earned it's respect.

Now that was back when it was a total dog eat dog world.. Now nation leaders are passive. Too passive at times lol..

But let me make one thing clear. USA ALWAYS HAS AND ALWAYS WILL help and defend the little guys who deserve it. Ask anyone who has played for any amount of time and they will tell you USA has always stuck up for the smaller nations.

Now if they deserve to be killed, then we won't help. But if a small nation is getting picked on or bullied, USA will always be there to help!

Now about allies and NAPS, yea i agree with that. There is to many. Which is part of the reason USA normally doesn't agree to them. We only did it to help the Estonians get a fair chance without the fear of either Dak, USA or anyone else hitting them without knowing others would back them up. Kinda like the same thing USA does for new nations who come to us for some help while they get on there feet.

We have helped nation after nation get on there feet. We have provided a little cover for them while they learned the game. I have personally handled diplomatic relations for many of these nations too, where i talked to them and gave them my word that it's a new nation in training and they needed a little slack.

Honestly, the problem isn't really with the big nations. It's the amount of members we have. We are still growing and as we gain more, there will be more people to join other nations and help them grow. Right now the main people playing are all the ones from the last couple years of WoW and they all went back to there normal nation. Can't really blame them for that.

I'm not saying everything is perfect. I'm just saying i don't think it's as bad as it's being made out to be.

But i will put this offer out to all the small nations. If you are new and looking to grow and are worried about being hit by larger nations, please send me a ingame message and we would be more then happy to help you out. This doesn't mean you can go off and war people and expect us to jump in to save you.. Won't happen. I won't be taken advantage of. But i'm always willing to help newer nations get on there feet.

I really think we all just need to give this whole thing more time. Let's let the cards fall some. You will see alliances break apart and people turn on eachother and new alliances formed ect ect.. Just need to give it all time. it happens, i promise! lol....

Saunders241
06-13-2008, 00:51
::All quotes property of Mr. President::


Nice post!

Thanks, I'm flattered (seriously).


I agree with some of it, but this is what i disagree with the most. You say that smaller nations can't do anything to retal a larger one... I don't understand that (rest snipped for room, and basically cause I don't feel like copying that much lol)

I'll still argue this. I understand how you stood up and won that war, but with the shape of things at this point, I seriously don't see how that is feasible. Today, if a small 3-4 member nation were to try to retal, say, DAK or KIHT for example, it would be a slaughter, to say the least. And thats the point where other nations would need to jump in and help defend the little guys, which leads to the next point....


But let me make one thing clear. USA ALWAYS HAS AND ALWAYS WILL help and defend the little guys who deserve it. Ask anyone who has played for any amount of time and they will tell you USA has always stuck up for the smaller nations.

And I don't doubt it at all (and actually appreciate someone coming out and saying they're there if needed). I just go by what I've seen myself. I have a tendency to ignore stuff that doesn't affect me or whatever nation I'm in, so I've prob missed instances of USA (and maybe other nations) helping even the playing field.


Honestly, the problem isn't really with the big nations. It's the amount of members we have. We are still growing and as we gain more, there will be more people to join other nations and help them grow. Right now the main people playing are all the ones from the last couple years of WoW and they all went back to there normal nation. Can't really blame them for that.

And I'm just as guilty, I went back to RIOT the second Guy agreed to restart it with me. My issue, though, is with the way the large nations (and more specifically the players in them) approach their place in the game. Sure, he who holds all the cards holds all the power. But in the same vain, absolute power often corrupts absolutely...often times with the corrupted not even realizing what happened. No matter how right (or entitled or whatever) he may feel, Hulk Hogan flexing his muscles at a 3 year old is still Hulk Hogan flexing his muscles at a 3 year old...and here's hoping someone gets that analogy :D

ranger2112
06-14-2008, 13:28
i got it

Grendel Khan
07-02-2008, 06:55
"Never let another man dictate what you can and can not do"

Divine Intervention
07-02-2008, 08:29
Calvin - what was the nation that Scav had (Euro?) and how did they cheat? was it that bug which created extra armies?

mysterydave
07-02-2008, 11:42
First of all I would like to congratulate Rassputtin on a fantastic post. Very moving. The game would benefit immensely if every player thought about their first set in this game. I will recount my own experience below. I think it even dwarf's some of Mr. P's longest speeches so some of you may wish to skip. However I invite everyone to recount (much more briefly if you can) a) how you discovered the game, b) what happened in your first set or two, c) how you learned the unwritten landgrab rule.

When I first started people often asked me "What is your best finish" and would sometimes scoff and call me "n00b". However I enjoyed the struggle for acceptance through achievement in game.

Rassputtin, I have to disagree with your assessment of all elite players being in major nations and all in one big alliance is wrong. There are many old loyalties and feuds, the currents of which can run deep. Certainly more than I am even aware of and I know far too many to detail them here.

Even in the broader sense that although some are enemies they all perpetuate the same standards (unwritten rules) is also not true. There was outcry when the [KIHT] & [EEK] states first came to nation-wars from a variant world-of-war server in Estonia. There they had developed their own "unwritten" rules that were very different from ours. When they first started playing here they were labeled suiciders by many old vets here as their game etiquette was very different.

Those accepted standards do change. I have seen them change while I have been playing. When I started doing 2 standard attacks against a state within 36 hours of each other was unacceptable. A small change but one that has happened non the less. Back then it was also an unwritten rule that you kept balanced units, and 100% inf states would get attacked too.

I agree with you. These "accepted rules" are not rules of the game. The only enforcement of them is by other players. There is no other reason to follow them and no reason why a player should not choose to ignore them, or try and change them. The difficulty with changing them is in the nature of accepted rules though. For a change to replace them the change also has to become the accepted. The ex-Estonian server players are having to change their own accepted ideas in order to conform to ours, but there is no reason why it should not be the other way around.

How I came to the game and learned the etiquette (apologies in advance over length):

Discovering the game.
In 2002 I played an online game where you created a boxer character, set his tactics and every week he fought against someone else's. It was a fun game and I enjoyed it, but found it very slow. A banner I'd seen a couple of times on its website advertised World-of-War. One time I clicked it and read something like "one of the fastest moving turn based massively multi-player games", "turn every 10 minutes". I was interested, being bored of waiting a whole week for action.

First set.
I started part way through a set and had a similar experience to Rassputtin. I played a mixed strat and minded my own business, expanding and building happily. Someone attacked me with a standard attack, I looked that person up, spied on them for intel, bought a few units and standard attacked them back a couple of times. Later they did a few SA on me and moved up the scores and I found I couldn't win attacking him with SA anymore, so I used a different kind of attack instead. They attacked me back and increased their units until I could only terrorise them with spy ops. The whole thing was a little exciting but also frustrating as the other state was clearly less n00b and able to move beyond my reach.
At some point during the tit for tat battle I got recruited into a casher nation. This nation had a "retal request" (section in their in-game forum in which I posted some of the attacks this guy had done on me. Nothing happened but through the players posts in there I started to grasp the 'gentleman's rule'.

2nd set.
I got on the forums as I was bored waiting for the new set to start. I got planning with another n00b that we'd start a nation together, we posted on recruitment forums etc. Some replies to the thread asked what strat we were going to run. I didn't have a clue what strat meant but from what people said and reading the manual I plumped for farmer. I had ideas of running it as a total democracy, electing a new leader every week and so created Farmers Weekly [FW].
A few joined, I think there were 8 or 9 of us. I ran farmer and after a couple of weeks convinced of the advantage of pure strat.
Another state multi-tapped or war attacked a member and I sent a polite message to their leader asking them to stop and the reply came back something like "*** DON'T THREATEN ME YOU **** IF YOU MESSAGE ME AGAIN I WILL **** KILL YOU". I replied saying I didn't threaten just wanted for his member to stop hurting my member etc. Another message in bad English and full of expletives came back along with a war declaration and lots of war type attacks on several members.
That nation [NVS] had over 2x our members and over 4x our NW fortunately they were n00bs too and didn't know how to war. I didn't know that though and cut and pasted the whole message chain into the Wars & Relations forum. Several replies expressed sympathy. A co-leader of a vet nation [E] got in touch and offered help, before they could they took a FS from another bigger vet nation [UAAF] before they could help. However from talking to their co-leader and seeing what they did I learned how to war. We got organised and managed to killed 3 [NVS] top states before the set ended.
I kept the whole thing updated in the forum thread and a few who'd been casually following it the whole way through offered congratulations. After that I continued the nation to the next set slighly more seriously and called it Farm Wars[FW]. More members joined and we netted to a decent finish. A couple of sets later we were starting to become a major nation and a couple of sets later still we won the set as the top nation in the game.

Supporting the n00bs
Right from when [FW] was small to when it was bigger, [FW] was consistent. Actively recruited n00bs and offered advice and guidance rather than trying to "train" or "groom", members could run their state how they liked and have a vote in how the nation as a whole was run. We had I think 3 national rules regarding mult-taps & war attacks, spy ops and activity. If one of our members was attacked with multiple SA or war attacks I would send two messages, one to their leader (if they had one) the other two them. Theirs would read something like:

In world-of-war a standard attack is a "friendly" skirmish over borders that gains land and does little damage to the defending state (if not used repeatedly.) Other attacks or multiple standard attacks damage the attacked state and gain little or nothing for the attacker. These are purely destructive and used only to hurt or destroy states.
You attacked a member of [FW] with XXXXX attacks and hurt his state while gaining nothing for your state. As far as I know this state has done nothing to harm you. Please do not attack members of [FW] in this way again. We are a peaceful and democratic nation but we will defend ourselves if we are forced to.

I'd also include a cut & paste from the event viewer of the attacks in question. The responses of states in small, 1 man or n00b nations or not in nations was usually either:
"Sorry I didn't realise, I won't do it again", or "He attacked me first".
For the latter it would nearly always be a single SA. Either way most often a positive dialogue ensued that quite often led to the state joining [FW]. Some people who started their playing career being recruited to [FW] this way are probably still around as some of those "elite vets" you mention.

Will
07-04-2008, 12:29
Calvin - what was the nation that Scav had (Euro?) and how did they cheat? was it that bug which created extra armies?

I believe this was with Martyrs and they found a bug that allowed you to vastly increase indy production (by several times) and their states could not be caught up with even by feeding.