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MAGGIO
09-14-2007, 10:22
Coach Bill Belichick picked the absolute worst time to cheat, or more to the point, the worst time to get caught cheating. Of course, the New England Patriots aren't the only team that has spied on opponents to gain a competitive advantage. But the Patriots, with Belichick leading the way, already were perceived in a great many football circles as smug, dismissive and manipulative to the highest degree, and they got caught cheating at a time when the boss of the NFL, Roger Goodell, has declared zero tolerance on anything that reflects negatively on the product.

Word late last night was that Goodell had decided on the Patriots' punishment, which wasn't nearly as severe as many were hoping for, or as it could have been. If Goodell can hand out multiple-game suspensions in the name of protecting the integrity of the NFL, then he ought to have hit Belichick with something more than a $500,000 fine, and the Patriots with half that big a fine and perhaps a couple of draft picks. No single pro football player, even one pumped up on steroids, has the impact on a football game that a coach does.

Goodell should have sat Belichick for a game, should have flexed like he has with the players and dished out a punishment that would serve as a deterrent. This isn't, and it's disappointing in the context of his get-tough commissionership.

There's not much of a case to be made on behalf of leniency for the Patriots. The New York Jets' veteran director of security, a former FBI agent, caught them with the unethically obtained videotape. Belichick already has issued one of those phony celebrity apologies that tries to mitigate the circumstances. In another place and time, Belichick probably would have gotten off with a frown and a scolding.

But not now. There's context to everything and the NFL helped create that context. The NFL decided lawless times called for extreme measures, and if there's no tolerance for players to bring into question the integrity of the league, then there should be no tolerance for coaches doing it. As Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer told reporters in Cincinnati the other day, "I hope the commissioner is just as harsh on [management] as he's been on individual players for making mistakes."

It's one of those cases where the league could have justified making the punishment bigger than the crime. The Patriots, if this is all Goodell does, appear to have dodged the perfect storm.

A good number of people already resent the team because they've won three Super Bowls, because they seem to embrace the notion that they're better and smarter and more resourceful than everybody else in the NFL. While the Patriots aren't the source, there are nonetheless no shortage of reports about how superior of character the coaches and players are. Yet there's the matter of Belichick constantly lying about his teams' injuries or refusing to disclose them as the league requires. Belichick thumbs his nose at the league's silly dress code for coaches by wearing those hideous hooded sweatshirts during games. At one point, after winning the three Super Bowls, Belichick wouldn't speak the name of his recently departed lieutenant, Eric Mangini, who dared leave to coach the Jets.

It certainly didn't help the Patriots that the flap involved the Jets and got the New York media all fired up and looking for revenge. If the Patriots had been playing Jacksonville, there wouldn't have been a peep out of the media in New York, where the outrage started.

But this is just the latest episode for Belichick and the Patriots, not the first. The Patriots have been playing fast and loose for years. Paul Zimmerman, the veteran football writer for Sports Illustrated, recounts meetings between league coaches and executives in which they swap stories about their headsets being sabotaged while playing in New England and other signal-stealing anecdotes.

Okay, gaining a competitive advantage is part of sports, right? Signal stealing is a romanticized part of major league baseball. The big problem is that the NFL declared this kind of espionage against the league's rules and Goodell warned teams about it. The Patriots had previously been caught doing the same thing to the Packers. So, in essence, Belichick went right ahead with his video spying. He knowingly violated a league rule, both in spirit and letter. So Belichick needed to go down and go down hard. As the Steelers' Hines Ward said, "Hopefully [the penalty] will be stiff enough that no one else will try it."

Ward will find out officially today Belichick got a nudge, not a pop.

While the coach needs to bear the brunt of the punishment, Robert Kraft, probably the league's most respected owner, should have been hit much harder, too, whether or not he had direct knowledge. He's on the wrong end of what the NCAA used to call "a lack of institutional control."

Usually, fining billionaires means nothing. But look at the $100 million fine Formula One levied against the McLaren team yesterday for spying on and obtaining secret technical documents belonging to its rival, Ferrari. You think McLaren's going to try that again? Had the Patriots been hit with a fine one-tenth of that, $10 million, Kraft would have banned his coaches from videotaping their own sideline. He'd have every piece of electronic equipment in Foxboro trashed.

But Goodell didn't apply the muscle to management he did to labor. He was awfully aggressive (and perhaps justifiably so) with the likes of Chris Henry and Tank Johnson and Adam "Pacman" Jones, but pulled his punch when it came time to fight with one of the fair-haired guys in management.

Normally, I tune out Dolphins linebacker Joey Porter completely, but he made a great point the other day when he told reporters in Miami: "People take a supplement that has a little more than caffeine in it and they call that cheating and suspend you for four games for that? But these guys are videotaping our signals from the sideline? New England went from not being a good team to being a powerhouse. Now I have a question."

Dan Le Batard, writing in the Miami Herald, says that the people who spent much of the summer in outrage over Barry Bonds's chase of the home run record owe Belichick the same treatment because they've both cheated the game. I'm not willing to go that far because steroids are illegal. Still, it's a fair question.

The Dolphins' Jason Taylor brought some balance to the debate when he said: "Stealing signs is not the same as changing the hormone levels in your body in a game that is built on speed, power and quickness. I'm not condoning the cheating part of it, but they are two different things."

But we can agree, hopefully, that both things are bad for pro football and for competition, especially at the highest level. We don't know exactly how much steroid or HGH use helps a slugger and we don't know exactly how much spying hurts an opponent.

Please, stop with the notion that the spying didn't help at all. If it didn't help, why did the Patriots keep doing it?

What we're finding out from the firestorm that has ensued is that even if the punishment is weak, there nonetheless is a taint on cheaters and this time it's Belichick's previously lofty reputation that's taking a big and justifiable hit.

ooga booga
09-14-2007, 10:48
A good number of people already resent the team because they've won three Super Bowls, because they seem to embrace the notion that they're better and smarter and more resourceful than everybody else in the NFL

Oh, oh, that's me! That's me!! I hate the Patriots more then ANY other team in the NFL. :chair: Most of that is because I'm a diehard Bills fan, a divisional rival of NE who has suffered 7 consecutive losses over 3 1/2 years to the pieces of crap. But when I found out about this earlier this week I was outraged. Goodell was suppose to become this strict commishiner, yet when an organization as big as NE gets caught with this he barely slaps them on the wrist. A $500,000 fine is nothing when you are making revenue in the hundreds of millions/billions. It's a disgrace that they were caught videotaping other teams signals and a bigger disgrace that Belichick or other people weren't suspended.

Mr President
09-14-2007, 13:20
heard they got a 750k fine and might lose a draft pick..

ooga booga
09-14-2007, 14:24
http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80251b7e&template=with-video&confirm=true

Yes, this is good news indeed. Looks like a total of $750,000 fine, and if they make the playoffs they will lose their First round draft pick next year!!! And if they don't make the playoffs, they'll lose their 2nd and 3rd!! This is a lot stricter then the punishment MAGGIO had mentioned, with draft picks having so much value in them these days. I'm happier the punishment is more harsh then originally thought.

Crimson Shadow
09-14-2007, 16:17
I think it needs to be harsher still. Maybe all that and the forfeit of the Jets game.

ranger2112
09-14-2007, 16:27
u cant forfeit the game.... that would be the same as a bad Ref call to swing the game one way or the other and forfeit the win later. they should just have a do-over or something. they both a bye in week 10

pron
09-14-2007, 16:43
Aye, but the draft pick isn't that big of a deal, since they traded for SF's 1st round in the upcoming year--so they've still got a pick in the 1st round. Commish was pretty lenient.

Hoebawt
09-14-2007, 18:25
Yea that punishment is BS does make me wonder how long they have been cheating.... Makes me very angry that no suspension's where giving and that the fines weren't in the millions

Hamlet
09-14-2007, 18:45
Well it sure is cheap compared to Mclaren-Mercedes fine of $100m for spying in F1.

Anyway, thought it was legal to gather info about the opponents signals in NFL - today I've actually learned something by reading the NW forum :blink:

ooga booga
09-15-2007, 17:59
True, I was happier the punishment was harsher, but I agree I don't think it's harsh enough. I think suspensions should have definitely been handed out, and you can't really do-over a game since the Las Vegas bets have already cashed out and all the crap. Besides this is most likely not just 1 game, but for a couple of seasons of this spying (there was an incident last year apparently against Green Bay).

TheSecondComing
09-15-2007, 21:12
Mclaren-Mercedes getting fined $100m may sound like a crippling fine, but when u realize the amount of money that goes into F1..... its sickening....maclaren probably spend that much on research for new cars anyway. (then again thats another reason why they got a fine like that for spying)

I don't really understand how spying on an NFL team to gain a tactical advantage is the same thing though. Unlike in F1 where exact plans can be copied and reproduced, the skill of players in a specific team cannot be, and if players are just simply talented, its not something you can reproduce through spying. I can understand that by knowing the tactics of a team means u can counteract what they do to a certain extent, but then again if the players are creative enough the fact that the other team knows your signals shouldn't effect it that much.

maybe its because I'm from England and therefore don't really know the full aspect of NFL... but in English (proper ;) ) football after every game the commentators bring up each aspect of great play by each team and analyze it. Added to which, anyone can watch a game and anyone can tape a game so anyone could analyze what a certain team does in a certain situation.

I'm sure that NFL is just as televised as the premiership, and that if someone wanted to work out each teams signals they could do it by watching the games other teams play and watching tapes of them.

However, purely apon the fact that they were spying, even if there was no benefit, they still deserved to be punished, would you like it if some random person you didn't know come to your house and watched you cook every day
to see if they could steal your recipes? (doesn't mean they'd be able to reproduce it but the fact that there in your house watching you is the bad part).

Hoebawt
09-15-2007, 21:17
Wat the Pats did was they cheated during the game being able to adjust their offense or defense to suit their needs thats where the problem is

Acetriad
09-16-2007, 00:03
Punishment should have been much harsher. Its not so much what they may have gained by it as the fact that they think they are gods amoung men who think that no rules apply to them. There should have been some (at least short term) suspensions.

Crimson Shadow
09-16-2007, 21:10
Anyway, thought it was legal to gather info about the opponents signals in NFL - today I've actually learned something by reading the NW forum :blink:

It is legal to steal signals (teams hire lip readers) but it is illegal to videotape them.

Hamlet
09-17-2007, 18:16
OK, now the plot thickens. Doesn't that just give the team with the best lip reader an advantage? I assume qualified lip readers are a limited resource at least compared to cameras...or are they abundant due to the need for them in pro sports in US? Imo, it would make more sense and be more stringent, if all forms of signal stealing was considered illegal...

:drink: "Y-o-u m-a-y r-e-a-d o-u-r l-i-p-s l-i-v-e, b-u-t y-o-u m-a-y n-o-t t-a-p-e u-s. C-h-e-e-r-s m-a-t-e!"

ranger2112
09-17-2007, 18:33
there is cheating and there is strategy. :p:P

ooga booga
09-17-2007, 18:52
OK, now the plot thickens. Doesn't that just give the team with the best lip reader an advantage? I assume qualified lip readers are a limited resource at least compared to cameras...or are they abundant due to the need for them in pro sports in US? Imo, it would make more sense and be more stringent, if all forms of signal stealing was considered illegal...

:drink: "Y-o-u m-a-y r-e-a-d o-u-r l-i-p-s l-i-v-e, b-u-t y-o-u m-a-y n-o-t t-a-p-e u-s. C-h-e-e-r-s m-a-t-e!"

Almost all head coaches and offensive cordinators cover their mouths with a form of paper when they say the play in their headsets, which is an easy way of beating the lip readers. But taping their signals is illegal. It's the fact that New England was going against the league rules, and knew they were doing illegal acts.

ranger2112
09-17-2007, 18:54
good point..most or all coaches cover their mouths

Hamlet
09-18-2007, 05:17
Yup, good point. However, I still find it more stringent to ban all kinds of espionage. There must be some kind of pay-off from lip reading - paper covering or not - since all teams got ppl dedicated to the task.

Anyway, I wish the lip readers good luck when it comes to interpreting words coming from Morten Andersens mouth containing the letters "å", "ø" and "æ" - if he could teach the rest of Atlanta Falcons Danish then the problem would be solved ;)

ranger2112
09-18-2007, 11:29
what, u want them to get windtalkers???

TheSecondComing
09-18-2007, 20:07
its got to go one way or the other surely, u cant just allow some forms of gathering information on other teams and not allow others.... either you let everything open to view, or to don't allow anything. Don't see the difference between taping peoples signals and getting them via lip readers...

ooga booga
09-18-2007, 20:21
you guys aren't getting it. They were taping the DEFENSIVE signals. Lip readers are useless when it comes to defense, as the defensive cordinators give out hand signals to their players, not talking through the headset like the offense does. The offense and defense do it differently. So stop focusing on the freakin lip reading, you're focusing on the wrong things, haha. The point isn't that the rule is silly, it's that a team was caught CHEATING/breaking the rule and were deliberatly doing it.

Hoebawt
09-19-2007, 13:37
I want to be a lip reader

Crimson Shadow
09-19-2007, 16:36
It's not an easy job

Satan666
09-21-2007, 17:44
all i have to say is i HATE the Patriots.

Crimson Shadow
09-21-2007, 18:09
I will proudly second that notion.



GO BRONCOS!!!! :)

ranger2112
09-21-2007, 18:12
could care less about them. pfft

ooga booga
09-22-2007, 00:20
all i have to say is i HATE the Patriots.

Amen to that!!!!

GO BUFFALO!!! Proud division rivals of the NE Patriots. :P

Hamlet
09-22-2007, 09:05
I picked Packers as "my team", when Danish telly began broadcasting live from NFL approx. 10 years ago. However, since I haven't got any emotional bond to any of the teams, then I'll just support Falcons (i.e. Morten Andersen) and Packers this season. Go Cheesy Falcons!

Satan666
09-22-2007, 15:10
... then I'll just support Falcons (i.e. Morten Andersen) and Packers this season. Go Cheesy Falcons!

God i can't remember what team he used to be on... (Chiefs).

Go Chiefs!!!

Hamlet
09-22-2007, 17:17
Ohh a Chiefs fan. Let me exploit the moment to answer a Q: What is the song/chant called, that are heard during Chiefs games, i.e. when ppl do the tomahawk thingy?

Acetriad
09-23-2007, 03:04
Personally, I think they are all a bunch of over-proud, over-paid neanderthals, but to each his own. I don't like the patriots especially though. Their recent rise in fame is due to their name, which is despicable. And the fact that they are low down dirty cheaters, which is entirely in keeping with their name, is also rather repugnant.

Satan666
09-23-2007, 03:14
Ohh a Chiefs fan. Let me exploit the moment to answer a Q: What is the song/chant called, that are heard during Chiefs games, i.e. when ppl do the tomahawk thingy?

i really don't know, but thats because i'm the kind of fan that rolls over and turns on the game. I know that makes me lazy but oh well.

Hamlet
09-23-2007, 07:44
I found the A to my Q by doing some research: The solution was in my Q, i.e. it's called the War chant or Tomahawk chant. Apparently invented at Florida State University and then nicked by other teams.

The history of the war chant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Chant

Florida State - doing the war chant
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU-XXy99xVw

Sorry for going a bit off topic in the last couple of posts...:blush:

ooga booga
09-23-2007, 20:10
Well I just got to sit and watch my team lose to dirty cheaters that I despise the most. Not only do they cheat with videotaping, but they are just a downright dirty team. On the first series that we had, one of New England's defensive players did a late diving hit on our QB, purposely sticking out his elbow striking our QB's knee and injuring him for the game. In fact he sprained his MCL on the play, and is now out for a couple of weeks. It was a late hit, well after our Losman (our QB) had already thrown the ball away. It was a cheap shot on the first series, and it just shows how disgusting NE is. I have hated them well before this scandle, and I hate them even more. The cheating pieces of crap.

ooga booga
09-29-2007, 20:08
Adam Schefter of NFL Network reports that New England Patriots defensive tackle Vince Wilfork has been fined $12,000 for his elbow to the knee of Buffalo Bills quarterback J.P. Losman during Sunday's game between the two teams at Gillette Stadium.

Video of the play shows that Wilfork was blocked toward Losman, but that Wilfork also threw his elbow toward Losman's knee.

Losman left the game two plays later, and is expected to miss two more weeks

Source: NFL Network

Another punishment handed out to the cheating Patriots.

Satan666
09-30-2007, 03:17
This is why i hate that team, they can't just lose with pride.

Crimson Shadow
09-30-2007, 15:33
The #1 team in both Offense and Defense.......I wonder how they managed to hold that through 3 weeks ;)