View Full Version : Massive Economics Thread
These 2 huge finance companies will soon be taken over by the US government.
between the 2 they hold 1/2 the mortgages in America.
this will be the biggest government bail out in US history.
Taxpayers (of the future again, your children, and theirs, th same peole paying for Iraq)
will pay another 1/4 - 1/2 Trillion for this.
Z
Thats the U.S. government for you, I believe they'd do somethin like this, but just for the record could you post your source?
These 2 huge finance companies will soon be taken over by the US government.
between the 2 they hold 1/2 the mortgages in America.
this will be the biggest government bail out in US history.
Taxpayers (of the future again, your children, and theirs, th same peole paying for Iraq)
will pay another 1/4 - 1/2 Trillion for this.
Z
they don't hold em.. they guarantuee them. at least thats supposed to be their busienss model.
as for scource, its allover the news. hard to miss.
they don't hold em.. they guarantuee them. at least thats supposed to be their busienss model.
as for scource, its allover the news. hard to miss.
Really? I keep missin it somehow then, I'll pay more attention next time =/
watch bloomberg or some real news channel
Z, i don't want to say you can't post your opinion, but really, you look for the bad in anything dealing with the US. You got to understand that it gets tiring reading the constant bombardments of threads. Now it is a problem, but it isn't so much linked to the republican party as you seem to be hell bent on laying blame for everything wrong in the world.
In my opinion the present credit bubble was created by Alan Greenspan, the man who was so lauded and praised during the Clinton years and so many Democrats seem to have steamy dreams about.
Alan Greenspan reign in the Federal Reserve was responsible of the Dot Com bubble and the present Credit bubble. Probably two of the largest pops over the Feds time with the exceptions of the 1929 stock market crash.
This didn't just start last year, this is a by product of low interests rates, and slow reaction by the FED to raise them during good times. Which managed to produce this highly leveraged products. In some cases only 5% assets versus 95% of debt. So if something went down in value as much as 5%, the loan basically had no collateral against it and was worthless paper. Because debt was so cheap, and interest rates were so low, they could do this and make huge sums of money. The US just didn't benefit from this these products are around all over the world. Foreign governments were in love with these same high yield products as well.
Most mortgages from pre 2003 are in decent shape, home values go up and down, but it doesn't matter till it recognizes by a sell. Market prices have fallen, but they had risen quite a lot in the last 5 years to, so it is a normal adjustment. And welcome for many people trying to buy houses in Florida, California, and Texas.Now these market adjustments in the hottest markets have threatened some morgage companies capitalization as they have to mark them to market and recognize losses even though nothing has changed with the mortgage.
The problem has been cheap money and a change in the way loans have been sold. Use to, the bank made the loan and held it. Now they just issue the morgage and then it gets sold and bunched in a bunch of other large loans to be sold over the market. Now they think they are all a certain credit rating, but they have no clue.
Now there are alot of variables i could go on and expand on, but this is the basics :)
In my opinion the present credit bubble was created by Alan Greenspan, the man who was so lauded and praised during the Clinton years and so many Democrats seem to have steamy dreams about.
Alan Greenspan reign in the Federal Reserve was responsible of the Dot Com bubble and the present Credit bubble. Probably two of the largest pops over the Feds time with the exceptions of the 1929 stock market crash.:clap:
i completely agree. i still don't know why so many people orgasm whenever greenspan speaks and treat him like he's buffet.
he and bernake are both rather incompetent.
This didn't just start last year, this is a by product of low interests rates, and slow reaction by the FED to raise them during good times. Which managed to produce this highly leveraged products. In some cases only 5% assets versus 95% of debt. So if something went down in value as much as 5%, the loan basically had no collateral against it and was worthless paper. Because debt was so cheap, and interest rates were so low, they could do this and make huge sums of money. The US just didn't benefit from this these products are around all over the world. Foreign governments were in love with these same high yield products as well.
Most mortgages from pre 2003 are in decent shape, home values go up and down, but it doesn't matter till it recognizes by a sell. Market prices have fallen, but they had risen quite a lot in the last 5 years to, so it is a normal adjustment. And welcome for many people trying to buy houses in Florida, California, and Texas.Now these market adjustments in the hottest markets have threatened some morgage companies capitalization as they have to mark them to market and recognize losses even though nothing has changed with the mortgage.
The problem has been cheap money and a change in the way loans have been sold. Use to, the bank made the loan and held it. Now they just issue the morgage and then it gets sold and bunched in a bunch of other large loans to be sold over the market. Now they think they are all a certain credit rating, but they have no clue.
Now there are alot of variables i could go on and expand on, but this is the basics yup, under greenspan the amount of M3 money circulating increased from 3.6 billion to over 10 billion USD. meaning he almsot trippled the amount of money going around, while the actual value of the US economy grew at a much slower pace.
msot of the US' economic grwoth in the last decade or two is due to the FED simply throwing moeny at it.
last time we did that in germany, we called it hyperinflation.
:clap:
i completely agree. i still don't know why so many people orgasm whenever greenspan speaks and treat him like he's buffet.
he and bernake are both rather incompetent.
yup, under greenspan the amount of M3 money circulating increased from 3.6 billion to over 10 billion USD. meaning he almsot trippled the amount of money going around, while the actual value of the US economy grew at a much slower pace.
msot of the US' economic grwoth in the last decade or two is due to the FED simply throwing moeny at it.
last time we did that in germany, we called it hyperinflation.
I too agree with Tnova... And I did not mention the republicans in this...
The democrats are not my fav group of people wither...
I'm not usually a negative person... just when I See negative things I will not try to pose them, as neutral or good..
And these are important matters, all citizens of Amerika, and North america should be concerned.
I could get angry at everyones ignorance of these real issues, but I do not... Maybe If I had children I would be a bit more testy.
Z
Mwahahahaha
09-12-2008, 20:08
Banking is about the capitalization of gains and the socialization of losses.
It happens again and again and again and again. The business of banking is making great profits over a short period of time and then lose it all by taking too much risk pretending they've done a good job. Before the crack, the financial sector in USA took in one third of the profits of the corporate sector which is simply stupid.
As said before, Greenspan ****ed up, and he even had the nerve to critizice what happened afterwards. Greenspan's prolonged low interest rates created the housing bouble, and the old bastard still have the nerve to run around the world charging tons of money speaking about why we have a crises today.
Ali brought this to my attention today, he is studying Finance in school, I found this quite disturbing, but not surprising.
the 1st of many I suspect:
Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. (NYSE: LEH) (pronounced IPA: /ˈliːmən/), founded in 1850, is a crisis hit[1] global financial-services firm. The firm does business in investment banking, equity and fixed-income sales, research and trading, investment management, private equity, and private banking. It is a primary dealer in the U.S. Treasury securities market.
On September 15, 2008, it filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection[2] listing bank debt of $613 billion, $155 billion in bond debt and assets worth only $639 billion.[3] The filing is the largest bankruptcy in US history. [4] Until the bankruptcy procedures are completed, the company is still in existence.
Lehman Brothers (LEH) shares tumbled 80% in U.S. pre-open trade. Macquarie Private Wealth associate director Marcus Droga stated: "You've probably seen more in one day of financial history than we've seen since the great crash of 1929. I'm not suggesting the US market will crash tonight, but in terms of landmark events, it's an historic day."
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Stop wasting money in Iraq.
Z
kenshin44
09-15-2008, 16:19
This is bad news for us all as the economy struggles I think Change is in order and i personally believe the presidency campaighn is one of importance.
I believe change in our economy can come from Barack Obama and none other as he is the only one who has something new to offer to the table.
If you believe the economy is alright and everything is good then McCain is the choice for you, but that goes hand in hand with if you like Bush cause statistics say McCain has agreed with BUSH's Statements at about a rate of 90% .
Vote Obama and Vote for Change
Disorder
09-15-2008, 17:06
This is bad news for us all as the economy struggles I think Change is in order and i personally believe the presidency campaighn is one of importance.
I believe change in our economy can come from Barack Obama and none other as he is the only one who has something new to offer to the table.
If you believe the economy is alright and everything is good then McCain is the choice for you, but that goes hand in hand with if you like Bush cause statistics say McCain has agreed with BUSH's Statements at about a rate of 90% .
Vote Obama and Vote for Change
Put sign in your front yard and stop spamming here!
kenshin44
09-15-2008, 17:18
Put sign in your front yard and stop spamming here!
ummm can you tell me how that is spamming? it is relative to the topic of our economic problems.
Cause if you think our politics isn't related to our economy in any way then i guess your right it is spam. But i guess USA does think it is related, and that it is an issue. Guess you must be right and the country is wrong.
ummm can you tell me how that is spamming? it is relative to the topic of our economic problems.
Cause if you think our politics isn't related to our economy in any way then i guess your right it is spam. But i guess USA does think it is related, and that it is an issue. Guess you must be right and the country is wrong.
I can not think of a more relative topic.
this is reality.
Z
I just can't believe how some ppl think that the presidency holds so muchpower over the economic stability of anything. This is just bewildering to me. I get so tired of pppl thinking that ANY president has any control over this.
It just boggles the mind.
ooga booga
09-15-2008, 17:27
Ali brought this to my attention today, he is studying Finance in school, I found this quite disturbing, but not surprising.
the 1st of many I suspect:
Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. (NYSE: LEH) (pronounced IPA: /ˈliːmən/), founded in 1850, is a crisis hit[1] global financial-services firm. The firm does business in investment banking, equity and fixed-income sales, research and trading, investment management, private equity, and private banking. It is a primary dealer in the U.S. Treasury securities market.
On September 15, 2008, it filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection[2] listing bank debt of $613 billion, $155 billion in bond debt and assets worth only $639 billion.[3] The filing is the largest bankruptcy in US history. [4] Until the bankruptcy procedures are completed, the company is still in existence.
Lehman Brothers (LEH) shares tumbled 80% in U.S. pre-open trade. Macquarie Private Wealth associate director Marcus Droga stated: "You've probably seen more in one day of financial history than we've seen since the great crash of 1929. I'm not suggesting the US market will crash tonight, but in terms of landmark events, it's an historic day."
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Stop wasting money in Iraq.
Z
Stop wasting money in Iraq? lol, what does that have to do with a private company screwing themselves over? Nothing. :rolleyes:
Disorder
09-15-2008, 20:20
ummm can you tell me how that is spamming? it is relative to the topic of our economic problems.
Cause if you think our politics isn't related to our economy in any way then i guess your right it is spam. But i guess USA does think it is related, and that it is an issue. Guess you must be right and the country is wrong.
I highly doubt your one to be preaching right and wrong, after all, it is your name that is highlighted in PINK. :glare:
Dis leave that for the war and realitons section :P
I just can't believe how some ppl think that the presidency holds so muchpower over the economic stability of anything. This is just bewildering to me. I get so tired of pppl thinking that ANY president has any control over this.
It just boggles the mind.
The Treasury Secretary refused to bail Lehmans out by taking on the debt or the deals would have gone through on the weekend. Once again, its the decision of how much the government should intervene in these situations.
And also, Bank of America took over Merrill Lynch for 50billion.
Not to mention AIG needs a loan of 40billion this week to stay afloat.
The fact is, the economy is in trouble. This can't be ignored.
I just can't believe how some ppl think that the presidency holds so muchpower over the economic stability of anything. This is just bewildering to me. I get so tired of pppl thinking that ANY president has any control over this.
It just boggles the mind.
The president appoints the cabinet and approves appointments to almost all major financial regulators. Fact is the president of the United States has a lot of say in how regulations are implemented and applied. The president can't control the economy directly but he can set the rules of the economy, the current crisis is because government abandoned it's oversight under the Bush presidency and allowed these institutions to scam their clients money away on bad debt and risky mortgage schemes. In Canada there is no mortgage crisis because we have regulations preventing crap like this from happening. The only way to trust bankers and lenders from not running themselves into the ground is to have a well balanced and regulated set of rules, otherwise their collective greed will get the best of there judgment and **** goes down hill pretty quick, you think the USA would of learned this from savings in loan scandal or even the great depression. It doesn't help that the government is in huge deficit with no plan to get out of it anytime soon.
down with collectivism and goo individualism!
The Treasury Secretary refused to bail Lehmans out by taking on the debt or the deals would have gone through on the weekend. Once again, its the decision of how much the government should intervene in these situations.
And also, Bank of America took over Merrill Lynch for 50billion.
Not to mention AIG needs a loan of 40billion this week to stay afloat.
The fact is, the economy is in trouble. This can't be ignored.
GOD****ED George Bush, it is all his fault.... isn't it???
is what I am hearing from all these NON Americans, Let me know how it is the administrations fault. come on, quote me some facts.......
FACTS, Not opinions from non Americans... I WANT FACTS!
Bram Gotink
09-16-2008, 05:32
Just to tell you, Dogma, you can edit posts. No need to double post there... unless you need the credits, which you don't.
It is a pitty that one of the biggest banks of the USA is bankrupt, b/c that will make the economical crisis only worse. Here, in Europe I mean, we haven't felt any consequences of this, but my guess is that we will feel it. soon.
Whatever. Dogma, you want proof? Quite hard to give, as no major European bank has had the same problem (yet).
It isn't the fault of GWB, it is the fault of whoever caused this economical crisis. That would be: Russia, OPEC and the american people and the rest of the world. No offense tho.
Russia: threatening Europe the same way OPEC did in 1972 was not smart. Stupid Russia!
OPEC: yeah, sure, produce less oil. That should help the economies in the world to heal... or not
American people: so many people losing confidence in [mortgage, that's what my translator says (don't trust it really)] at the same freakin' time is not good for the banks, thus not good for USA economy, thus not good for European economy and not good for the rest of the world either.
Rest of the world: almost no taxes in third world countries to lure big companies and thereby ruining the futures of our workers is not smart. Especially b/c china is always cheaper!
If the world continues like this for a couple of years, we will have 1929 all over again...
GOD****ED George Bush, it is all his fault.... isn't it???
is what I am hearing from all these NON Americans, Let me know how it is the administrations fault. come on, quote me some facts.......
Dogma, you interpret every post non-americans post about USA with such hostility. I didn't say a thing about George Bush, yet you make it sound like I called him out and everything is his problem.
I am giving you the facts. The government decides which company to bail out. The Secretary decided not to bail out Lehmans, or a deal would have been reached over the weekend with 2 potential foreign suitors. But AIG will be bailed out, there is no way they are going to let a huge Insurance Company go under, it has branches all over the place.
You seriously need to stop being so defensive. You act like everything is attacking you personally somehow. You fail to realize that because the USA is so big, everything that happens there has consequences throughout the world. Because of Lehmans, I know the Toronto Stock Exchange dropped 500 points yesterday. We have a right to speak our opinions on topics that you may regard as domestic affairs, because it is our money at stake as well.
youngwebsolutions
09-16-2008, 15:02
GOD****ED George Bush, it is all his fault.... isn't it???
is what I am hearing from all these NON Americans, Let me know how it is the administrations fault. come on, quote me some facts.......
Some facts:
. Administration allowed banks to loan huge amount of money to poor people
. Adminstration intervention with Bearn Sterns (govermental support to commercial company)
this gave other commercials the idea, we can do what we want.. Administration will help us when we go bankrupt..
. Administration intervention with freddy Mac and fanny mea (if spelled correct)
. Administration stopped (luckily for most americans and rest of the world) to intervent with merill lynch and and Lehman.
Result of this, banks go bankrupt, and 50.000 people are jobless..
Another result, banks take more attenitions about their loanes now, stop funding risky projects, so start-ups are harder to make, investments in factories are postponed, so economics will be affected!
EVERY action of an administration has always an affection on the economy.. but needless to say that they are not always bad, and that the commercial section will not always the intentions of an administration. But the choice of an administration for sure affects the ecomics (worldwide)
is not hostile, all it is is a request on facts proving the Administration is responsible for the market problem. That is all I am asking.
Yes it is a trerrible thing, not only for this country but for the global economy. I agree. But, they bank itself it responsible for it's own failure. It isn't the war, it isn't the cabinet members, it isn't the president that did this, the bank's own greed did this. They are now suffering from the mortgage crisis that has gripped our country for a couople years now. But that too was caused by the banking industry, not the administration.
The president appoints the cabinet and approves appointments to almost all major financial regulators. Fact is the president of the United States has a lot of say in how regulations are implemented and applied. The president can't control the economy directly but he can set the rules of the economy, the current crisis is because government abandoned it's oversight under the Bush presidency and allowed these institutions to scam their clients money away on bad debt and risky mortgage schemes. In Canada there is no mortgage crisis because we have regulations preventing crap like this from happening. The only way to trust bankers and lenders from not running themselves into the ground is to have a well balanced and regulated set of rules, otherwise their collective greed will get the best of there judgment and **** goes down hill pretty quick, you think the USA would of learned this from savings in loan scandal or even the great depression. It doesn't help that the government is in huge deficit with no plan to get out of it anytime soon.
Clinton Repealed those laws. Welcome Enron, Tyco, and "cooking the books".
A repeat of the 1929 Stock Market crash would be the best thing to happen to the world this century, possibly this millenium.
These investment banks need to go down. If you couldn't see this coming last August then you just weren't looking hard enough. The Fed tried to delay it as long as possible, they should have never have bailed out Bear Sterns fail as well, it is called Capatalism.
Long term it will be better. They tried to make money with out having any money. In 10 years no one will care.
kenshin44
09-16-2008, 20:08
Dogma i believe you are wrong that the presidency can't do anything to aide the economy, just cause President Bush has done nothing to aide this countries economy doesn't mean others should do the same.
President Franklin D. Roosevelt was one of the greatest Presidents as he was one of the first to actually implement government guidelines/ regulations to aid the rebuilding of the Economy and to implement a safeguard on the economy as well.
It is is with the involvement with government that we can avoid another catastrophic failure.
The Bush Administration has not aided this economy one bit, it is also not responsible for the falling of our economy. I believe the presidency can indeed aide this country and Dogma i honestly don't think the economy can just fix it self.
The Country and Bush Administration have already failed this country by putting down the lives of Americans in a useless war. A war that was based off of lies and then altered to the fitting of helping the Iraqi people, while we have shunned our eyes from the Darfur Situation, North Korean public hatred towards us. I believe the way this country is heading with McCain we will be in the middle east and soon Iran with no actual basis for us to be there. We really have no basis for any international involvement when we have picked and chosen which and what things we want to involve ourselves in.
Being a patriot of this country does not mean lose your sense in mind and blindly follow the leader. Our leader is one that is not supported by his people either.
.
CNN/Opinion Research 9/5-7/08 28 70 2 -42
the 28 percent is his approval and 70 is his disapproval. One thing i don't understand with the numbers is that McCain supports 90 percent of Bush's Policies, but RCP Average 09/05 - 09/15 -- 46.3 45.0 McCain +1.3
Those numbers Show McCain ahead of Obama it is just bewildering to imagine that this country bashes Bush but then they are willing to support another Bush who has failed to help the economy rebound. He has put us in a situation where if we withdraw from Iraq, the country would fall in chaos and be controlled by Insurgents. The reality is that, if we elect McCain Iran would be next and we would further implement our resources in useless campaigns that DON'T NEED OUR INVOLVEMENT. We have made on mistake, and electing a war experienced person like McCain, could only have more negative effects on us.
These Numbers are provided through CNN.
Also for International Polls, I haven't found a country that likes McCain more than Obama, so I guess our figurehead of this country would be widely disliked.
I cant even get into this crap...so here is how it is..
POOOOOOP! happens, and then the finger pointing starts
Ali brought this to my attention today, he is studying Finance in school, I found this quite disturbing, but not surprising.
the 1st of many I suspect:
Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. (NYSE: LEH) (pronounced IPA: /ˈliːmən/), founded in 1850, is a crisis hit[1] global financial-services firm. The firm does business in investment banking, equity and fixed-income sales, research and trading, investment management, private equity, and private banking. It is a primary dealer in the U.S. Treasury securities market.
On September 15, 2008, it filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection[2] listing bank debt of $613 billion, $155 billion in bond debt and assets worth only $639 billion.[3] The filing is the largest bankruptcy in US history. [4] Until the bankruptcy procedures are completed, the company is still in existence.
Lehman Brothers (LEH) shares tumbled 80% in U.S. pre-open trade. Macquarie Private Wealth associate director Marcus Droga stated: "You've probably seen more in one day of financial history than we've seen since the great crash of 1929. I'm not suggesting the US market will crash tonight, but in terms of landmark events, it's an historic day."
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Stop wasting money in Iraq.
Zjust tell me.. how does that relate to iraq??
Whatever. Dogma, you want proof? Quite hard to give, as no major European bank has had the same problem (yet).HBOS (worth 14% of what it was a year ago), IKB (saved by governemnt, taken over by private investor), Northern Rock (taken over by governemnt), Dresdner Kleinwort (only survives due to strogn parent company, sold to competitor), WestLB (saved by governemnt, future still undetermined), BayernLB (saved by governemnt), SachsenLB (taken over), Hypo Real Estate (saved by private investor), UBS (saved by private investors), Credit Suisse (saved by private investors). Thats 10 right there. There is probably more with major problems such as SocGen and so on.
Several smaler banks have gone bust already.
A repeat of the 1929 Stock Market crash would be the best thing to happen to the world this century, possibly this millenium.no not really
now on the black monday and following day... i'm probably losing a lot of moeny right now because of this. yet i still find it all very exciting.
i've been glued to a lvie ticker dedicated to this all day and to the news...
BUt things aare lookig nup. Chances are that AIG wil lbe split up and sold (several german insurers are interested). Maybe even a full takeover. AIG is only woth 10 billion USD right now... Allianz can easily pay that sum for example. Lehman is likely to survive imo if Barcleys will but up some parts of it. Afterall, its fund manager is already worth several times mroe than their parent company.
The winners of this crisi will be the retail banks which are buying up investment banks which normaly are very profitable for little money. But since all banks and financia lvalues.. in fact all stocks are low in value now, there is a lot of buying goign around. One bank after another is beeig ntaken over, be it retail or investment... Allaicne and Leicester, Dresdner, ML, HRE and so on...
private investors are buying bigtime into the market, Buffet for example is on a buyign spree, some funds that do nto rely on loans so much, the Schaffler family is buying the worlds second largest automobile supplyer, the porshe family now totaly dominates volkswagen...
Those are the smart guys.
On another note.. it really pains me to see one company after antoher, that i am about to apply to going bust. It will be really tough to get an intnership i nthis market, with the amount of employers decreasign and the amount of cheap and very qualified labour in that area going around (5000 thousand lehman banekrs alone in London... other investmetn banks wouldn't eve nened to recuit graduates anymore...)
. Administration allowed banks to loan huge amount of money to poor peoplethat can not be entirely blamed on the adminsitration, rather on greenspan, who outlasted several governemnts.
. Adminstration intervention with Bearn Sterns (govermental support to commercial company)
this gave other commercials the idea, we can do what we want.. Administration will help us when we go bankrupt..wasn't it technicaly a laon?
people always go around saying that its lie kgiving away tax payers moeny for nothing, while in mosnt cases its actualy a loan.
. Administration stopped (luckily for most americans and rest of the world) to intervent with merill lynch and and Lehman.
Result of this, banks go bankrupt, and 50.000 people are jobless..there was no intervention required for ML.
however Lehman shold have been saved. I stil lcan't figure why they didn't. If they needed an exampel they could have picked a bank that didn't really matter to the world.
while yes, the banks are resposnible for it with their greed. one msut cosndier, investment bankers are not much different than children in a candy shop. and the FED encouraged them and gave them mreo and mrore money. The kids went wild and bought and ate everythign i nthe shop they were able to and paid anything. At some stage the first one vomited from al lthe candy he ate and it caused a chain reaction. Now nobody wants to go to the candy shop again.
These investment banks need to go down. If you couldn't see this coming last August then you just weren't looking hard enough. The Fed tried to delay it as long as possible, they should have never have bailed out Bear Sterns fail as well, it is called Capatalism.
Long term it will be better. They tried to make money with out having any money. In 10 years no one will care.
it has been a industry olde rthan the automobile industry.. older than electricity... it is bound to survive. Maybe not in its current form. But just about every major ban kthese days has an investment bankign arm. So the indsutry will survive.
The concept of independant investmetn banks will be put to the test. But with candiates like Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanly chances are stil lgood. Plus there is thousands of smaller ones which are still doing well.
And maybe these independant investment banks will go and buy retail banks, to prevent the reverse happening (see ML and whatever happened to al lthe bansk that are now part of Citi, CS, UBS, Dresdner, Deutsche, BoA etc).
Deutsche, while nto beeign a case of an investmetn bank takign over a retai lbank.. it is probably a good example of what a bank lie kthat will look like. A strong investment bankign arm with a relatively weak retail arm.. which however does provide a lot of security and a steady stream of income.
Very well put KLL. I have no qualms with anything you post. I didn't go into details because so many people here don't seem to want to do anything but watch headlines. I can see you have a better grasp and deserve a response.
I really didn't mean all Investment Banks should go down, more so Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers. I would maintain that they certainly shouldn't all be saved. GS obviously comes out looking like the cream of the crop. I felt like Lehman Brothers will be sold, like you mentioned with AIG, and Barclay's looks to step up and buy the core banking business.Something must be real bad in their Wealth Management Arm that kept them from getting the extra 7B they needed to stay well capitalized.
The debt rating agencies have really lost my respect. I trust nothing they rate and not sure how they can know what is toxic and what is not. Since everything is packaged, repackaged, and sold.
Debt has a purpose and can do good things. However, i would like to see companies and these debt products not so heavily leveraged. A return to strict underwriting and loans tied to banks and assets would give me warm fuzzy feelings again. :)
im trying to figure out who actually runs america...?
I mean... u would think i t would run itself... (the people run it, as opposed to the commodities and resources located within its grasp)
now...
from what dogma says... the elected politicians have no control over the economy.
In Canada, we balance socialism and capitalism well.
IMO we could be a bit more socialist at this point in our countries history, as capitalism has served as a good foundation. (If u are familier with Ann Rynd, you will realize that the entire idea behind capitalism, is a transition into altruism)
Now...
If the elected leaders of the country have no control over the direction of the economy, even on a meta scale, when what/who does?
some private interest...? where is the garunte it is even american?
It is infuriating to see people sit in ignorance and see nothing wrong.
todays world is not the world of 50 or even 20 years ago.
wake up.
realize change happens.
Dogma I'm confident u do not care, but you are quickly proveing yourself to be true contestant for "NW's biggest Fool!"
Z
Bram Gotink
09-17-2008, 06:12
HBOS (worth 14% of what it was a year ago), IKB (saved by governemnt, taken over by private investor), Northern Rock (taken over by governemnt), Dresdner Kleinwort (only survives due to strogn parent company, sold to competitor), WestLB (saved by governemnt, future still undetermined), BayernLB (saved by governemnt), SachsenLB (taken over), Hypo Real Estate (saved by private investor), UBS (saved by private investors), Credit Suisse (saved by private investors). Thats 10 right there. There is probably more with major problems such as SocGen and so on.
Several smaler banks have gone bust already.
no not really
lol
I definetly said MAJOR bank in Europe, so the small banks don't count as the impact is fairly small.
I don't see any of these banks with "bankrupt" behind their name... Saved by government/private investors still means that the bank is saved, or you wrote it down incorrectly.
http://cxs-01.marketxs.com/servlet/Charts?se=0&x=500&y=400&graph=ti:57605,lt:l,type:line,chart:0,yloc:l&graph=type:vol,chart:1&chartheights=80,20&lpos=1&t=0&period=1y&interval&format=gif&font=9&nlocale=nl-NL&showylabels=false&sw=0
One of the three major Belgian Banks.
They raised their capital in July by selling a bunch of shares at low prices, hence the first drop in value.
Yesterday, the bank lost 11.5% of their value! Today is expected the same, last week was (oh no) the same.
The value of the shares is lower than ever, but still: the bank is nowhere near bankrupt. They still make profit, how strange it may sound (it does, doesn't it?)...
They lost € 500,000,000 b/c of Lehman, if AIG goes bankrupt as well, who know what will happen...
All banks are affected by what happens in the USofA, and if the crisis there continues, we will start having the same problems here soon enough. But not yet!
Paul D'Hoore (nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_D'Hoore), Belgium's best analyst in these matters, says that the banks have lost their confidence in each other and that that makes the crisis even worse.
P.S.: the last Belgian bank gone bankrupt was in 1930, the Bank of the Workers (Bank van de Arbeid)
P.P.S.: Paul D'Hoore has succeeded in making 176% profit in one year (2005-2006) by speculating.
Bram Gotink
09-17-2008, 09:02
Z your over confidence in your 3rd rate education is just ****ing astounding. Maybe some day when you actually grow up and take your head out of your ***, we can discuss it. But, until then I will continue to look at you as one of those ppl that has to have something to say no matter how ignorant nor uninformed on actual fact it is.
Global moderators should stop the ****ing use of **** and ***... Just like the ****ing rest of you...
It seems we have two contestants so far for the NW fool of the year contest:
Dogma - entered by -Z-
-Z- - entered by Dogma
Back on topic:
A friend of mine just told me that the American Bank has supported AIG with ca.70 billion $ in exchange for an 80% majority of shares...
This action had an immediate reaction in the rest of the world, the values of other bank/insurrance shares have stopped dropping too fast. Now they are even with yesterday, a little lower or even a little higher.
Congratz USA, after causing the problems, you have solved them. That would be a first...
jasonlfunk
09-17-2008, 09:25
This is bad news for us all as the economy struggles I think Change is in order and i personally believe the presidency campaighn is one of importance.
I believe change in our economy can come from Barack Obama and none other as he is the only one who has something new to offer to the table.
If you believe the economy is alright and everything is good then McCain is the choice for you, but that goes hand in hand with if you like Bush cause statistics say McCain has agreed with BUSH's Statements at about a rate of 90% .
Vote Obama and Vote for Change
Unless you want Big Brother government to come in and fix everything for you and take care of you - then vote Obama. Otherwise, man up - stop spending money you don't have and make your own choices.
It is impossible to go into bankruptcy when you don't borrow money. The article that Z cited said they were net roughly 150 billion dollars in debt. DUH! Of course there is going to be trouble. Debt = risk. They had a ton of debt and therefore a ton of risk. They made stupid choices and it came back to bite them. Sure- the economy has slowed a little, but if you haven't made stupid choices, it's still good enough to thrive.
Stop borrowing money.
The really funny part is non of us, and I mean non of us are
Finacial experts
Politica experts
Religeon experts
and even the "experts" are only speculating.
Bram Gotink
09-17-2008, 10:51
lol
so we are hyper-speculating not-knowing-anything people discussing this thingy...
The sub prime mortgage crisis made simple:
http://www.businesspundit.com/sub-prime/page3.php
kenshin44
09-17-2008, 17:04
Unless you want Big Brother government to come in and fix everything for you and take care of you - then vote Obama. Otherwise, man up - stop spending money you don't have and make your own choices.
It is impossible to go into bankruptcy when you don't borrow money. The article that Z cited said they were net roughly 150 billion dollars in debt. DUH! Of course there is going to be trouble. Debt = risk. They had a ton of debt and therefore a ton of risk. They made stupid choices and it came back to bite them. Sure- the economy has slowed a little, but if you haven't made stupid choices, it's still good enough to thrive.
Stop borrowing money.
I didn't talk about bankruptcy and the ideology of government not getting involved hasn't been working so far with the example of Bush.
I think it is needed that government help the economy as it is what puts money in the pockets of the U.S. People
Where does this money come from? The US people. So to help the US people you are going to take money from the US people? I know what you meant, but it was just funny to see. Yeah, the only way is to print money, and that is alot more dangerous and has longer term effects.
Some institutions are too big to let fail, i understand that, however there are many more that just need to fail. If every business though there would be a bail out, then they wouldn't have to worry about repercussions from being reckless. The sooner they fail, the sooner we can get out of a recession and get back on track.
Japan tried something similar back in the 90s, and it took them a very long time to get out of it.
Are you related to GWB Dogma?
I love how you ignore all that is real and true.
I've never met someone so Ignorant.
What College did U graduate from?
Or did u finish High school?
Why are you questioning my eduction.
I think you are aware that I graduated from Fanshawe in London, with a Degree in Philosophy.
Z
jasonlfunk
09-18-2008, 09:34
I think it is needed that government help the economy as it is what puts money in the pockets of the U.S. People
So you want to give the government more money so it can give it right back?
jasonlfunk
09-18-2008, 09:35
I think you are aware that I graduated from Fanshawe in London, with a Degree in Philosophy.
Z
You have a degree in philosophy? :confused:
You have a degree in philosophy? :confused:
you should have heard him talk from time to time :P, with no end in sight :P
j/k :blushing:
You have a degree in philosophy? :confused:
Yes.
and it seems that Philosophy is not at the time, the most financially rewarding of careers...
:-(
and So i will go back to school for Canadian Business In Vancouver I hope ina few years.
BTW:
McCain: "Our Financial System is Fundamentally Sound" (this, monday)
Hmmm... The man who lead the de-regulation in washington is now the same man who leads the McCain economic plan.
Even the white house press release contained messages closer to the democrats about the Economy.
McSame is screwed.
Z
The American Dream is dieing...
In hopes of its revival, I have been consistently attempting to reveal truths and remove blindfolds from members of this community and from members of my own real life community.
Why does is concern me? Well the American dream is a large part of why I am alive today, and why i enjoy the type of lifestyle I do.
If American freedoms, equalities and opportunities were not kept alive and in strong for so many decades, Canada would not have had the type of multicultural, and balanced society that it has today.
I have had a great deal more success in my real life in my attempts to enlighten my friends about the reasons behind this turn of events, and I am trying to figure out what I am missing here on these forums...
One factor I have considered is that this is a war game, and that perhaps a majority of the community is involved in war, or war business in some way and hence their perspectives are skewed...
Some are unable to realize that American Fascism is a reality:
Fascism is a totalitarian nationalist political ideology and mass movement that is concerned with notions of cultural decline or decadence, and which seeks to achieve a millenarian national rebirth by exalting the nation or race, as well as promoting cults of unity, strength and purity.[1][2][3][4][5]
Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, militarism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, class collaboration, populism, collectivism, statism, social interventionism, and economic planning. Fascism opposes communism, democracy, liberalism, and conservatism (taking into account that fascists made alliances with conservatives more often than other groups).
Z
Fascism is a totalitarian nationalist political ideology and mass movement that is concerned with notions of cultural decline or decadence, and which seeks to achieve a millenarian national rebirth by exalting the nation or race, as well as promoting cults of unity, strength and purity.[1][2][3][4][5]
Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, militarism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, class collaboration, populism, collectivism, statism, social interventionism, and economic planning. Fascism opposes communism, democracy, liberalism, and conservatism (taking into account that fascists made alliances with conservatives more often than other groups).
Z
Thought I should point out wher eyou got your info..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Speaking for myself.
#1) I don't come play a game to get into political discussions, so I'm really not interested in carrying on a conversation about it. I'm here for fun.
#2) I don't feel you respect other peoples opinions and perspective. When you go into a discussion assuming the other person is wrong, and close minded to their opinion, then it isn't a discussion. Any other way and people become defensive and it turns into an argument, pointless one at that, because people are going to believe what they want.
#3) I disagree with your accusation that America is a Facist. But I respect your opinion, you should try it sometime.:)
This will be the last time I post on such a serious topic. Hopefully:hammer2:
Speaking for myself.
#1) I don't come play a game to get into political discussions, so I'm really not interested in carrying on a conversation about it. I'm here for fun.
#2) I don't feel you respect other peoples opinions and perspective. When you go into a discussion assuming the other person is wrong, and close minded to their opinion, then it isn't a discussion. Any other way and people become defensive and it turns into an argument, pointless one at that, because people are going to believe what they want.
#3) I disagree with your accusation that America is a Facist. But I respect your opinion, you should try it sometime.:)
This will be the last time I post on such a serious topic. Hopefully:hammer2:
The only time I loose respect for people and their opinion is when they are ignorant of reality, and do not care to seek truth.
Z
What is the point of this thread? Just your opinion that USA is fascist? Can we not lump all your grievances agiainst America into one thread? Something like, "Why i hate America".
Disorder
09-18-2008, 22:22
What is the point of this thread? Just your opinion that USA is fascist? Can we not lump all your grievances agiainst America into one thread? Something like, "Why i hate America".
All I have to add to this topic.. is agreed... with Xavior.
Max Logan
09-19-2008, 00:06
The only time I loose respect for people and their opinion is when they are ignorant of reality, and do not care to seek truth.
Z
There isn`t a thread where you don`t bash USA.
Ok, I`m not American, and I don`t really like their politics, but you purely dislike them. Your position is to hate them, so seeking truth is not the case
There isn`t a thread where you don`t bash USA.
Ok, I`m not American, and I don`t really like their politics, but you purely dislike them. Your position is to hate them, so seeking truth is not the case
When Have I ever Said, I HATE AMERICA?
What I do not like is death destruction lies and sickkness.
and America has so much of that. thats what I fight.
Z
What is the point of this thread? Just your opinion that USA is fascist? Can we not lump all your grievances agiainst America into one thread? Something like, "Why i hate America".
If you hate america thats your issue.
America is the greatest country on earth...
What we need to do is clean it.
Z
No Z Britain is the greatest country on Earth. There's a reason why we don't get really nasty weather here (hurricanes and such) and that is because God is British.
ranger2112
09-19-2008, 12:21
No Z Britain is the greatest country on Earth. There's a reason why we don't get really nasty weather here (hurricanes and such) and that is because God is British.
That would explain why the world is so screwed up. THX for the heads up. :)
That would explain why the world is so screwed up. THX for the heads up. :)
No that's the fault of Americans for rebelling against Britain (and therefore god) :)
The only time I loose respect for people and their opinion is when they are ignorant of reality, and do not care to seek truth.
Z
That's just it though Z--you assume you have the truth, and no one else does. Hence the fact that you don't think anyone else's opinion is true. And why Tnova thinks you don't respect anyone's opinion.
But yes, America has problems, but I don't think fascism is one of them. As far as "cleaning up America"...GL BUDDY! You won't find a Utopia anywhere, so just live your own life the way you need to, and help those around you. If everyone does that, maybe we'll see a "cleaner" America.
Bram Gotink
09-19-2008, 13:03
No that's the fault of Americans for rebelling against Britain (and therefore god) :)
lol
I like your posts...
America is difficult. The country is very diverse. Not only the differences between town and metropole, that disgusting southern accent and the gap between poor-rich, but also the politics. When I hear about the elections, I keep wondering how on earth you invented that system...
Not that ours is better, but whatever...
What I find funny is that you have the contradiction between the prez and the leader of the American National Bank: "the base of our economy is broken" vs. "there's nothing wrong with the economy"
lol
Also, saw a documentary yesterday about Belgian people buying houses in Florida b/c a lot of people get evicted there (hmmm, sounds like the crisis is the cause of this) and Belgians have money enough (Euro>Dollar atm, don't know if you noticed :P) to buy beautiful houses;
while the former inhabitants are homeless and most of them lost all their money.
One statement in the docu really hit me in the face: "There is no more middleclass in America. Only the ones who have money and the ones who don't. The first can change into the second really fast."
btw, How can you live with a government with almost no social security? A woman (nurse) had cancer in the thyroid. So she got treated. One week after she begins working again, she has a major stroke and has to stay home again. So, what does the hospital do? Fire her b/c she's been absent for over three months total...
How on earth can you live with that?
Regards,
Bram - who lives in a country with sufficient social security
That's just it though Z--you assume you have the truth, and no one else does. Hence the fact that you don't think anyone else's opinion is true. And why Tnova thinks you don't respect anyone's opinion.
But yes, America has problems, but I don't think fascism is one of them. As far as "cleaning up America"...GL BUDDY! You won't find a Utopia anywhere, so just live your own life the way you need to, and help those around you. If everyone does that, maybe we'll see a "cleaner" America.
That is exactly what I was going to post.
I would only like to ask why do you think your truth is the only one, Z?
I just wish you would give it a rest.
And I know, I am the most ignorant poster in these forums, according to you, but I know differently. You just refuse to look at other ppl's opinions as being valid and that is what I argue against. Not so much your politics, but your elitist attitude.
And just to add, I am an American on Disability, therefore I depend on the government to survive. I cannot work so I receive Social Security benefits. I don't receive a lot of money from the government, but I get by. I own my own house, thanks to the government, so before you criticize me or my knowledge of how the system works, maybe you should consider that sometimes ppl just would rather not reveal their own situations in a public forum rather than calling them ignorant. I live the system and it works. Will I ever be wealthy? NO, do I need to be? No, Do I envy those that have made their own way? No. Soo, you see, just because you read it in a book or discussed it in a classroom, does not make you an expert on truth.
The Truth is, I am just not going to respond to anymore of it. no matter what you or anyone else says to either criticize me of the country I would give my life to protect.
ooga booga
09-20-2008, 16:23
The really funny part is non of us, and I mean non of us are
Finacial experts
Politica experts
Religeon experts
and even the "experts" are only speculating.
Right now I am in the education process of being a Financial expert. :p
And all these companies screwed themselves. To see the government step in to save them, is somewhat rewarding (see US stock market past 2 days, the week closed about even, lol) but at the same time it pisses me off seeing these companies get their butts saved for making stupid choices. Oh well, they are now controlled by the government (uh, scary?) or other companies. It was a crazy week. I'm surprised the SEC didn't step in when these companies were going ballistic borrowing.
I definetly said MAJOR bank in Europe, so the small banks don't count as the impact is fairly small.
I don't see any of these banks with "bankrupt" behind their name... Saved by government/private investors still means that the bank is saved, or you wrote it down incorrectly.all of the above banks, save the SachsenLB maybe are all major players in their target sectors.
UBS and Credit Suisse are amongst the top10 of the worlds largest banks, societe generale is one of the largest french banks and a major players in investment banking. Dresdner Kleinwort and WestLB also are big investment banks. Northern rock was one of the 3 largest mortage banks in the UK, HBOS one of the Uks largest mortage and retail banks aswell. Hypo Real estate is europes largest mortage bank, BayernLB is a large governemnt financier and provider of corporate finance and IKB is one of the leading banks in corporate finance for small companies in germany. Even relatively small banks such as BayernLB and IKB going broke can cost millions of jobs in the end.
Now you can add AIG, Lehman, Merryl Lynch and HBOS to the faield banks list. all of them major players and marekt leaders.
And if they are saved by the government it means they have failed, as without government intervention they would have gone bancrupt.
A bank should not be in the position that it needs saving.
One of the three major Belgian Banks.
They raised their capital in July by selling a bunch of shares at low prices, hence the first drop in value.
Yesterday, the bank lost 11.5% of their value! Today is expected the same, last week was (oh no) the same.
The value of the shares is lower than ever, but still: the bank is nowhere near bankrupt. They still make profit, how strange it may sound (it does, doesn't it?)...
They lost € 500,000,000 b/c of Lehman, if AIG goes bankrupt as well, who know what will happen...Even if a bank makes profit it doesn't mean they are liquid enuogh to run their busienss. It is what a lot of people forget about, profit is not what matters but cash flow.
Its why Morgan Stanley and Merril Lynch went running for the hills... They were profitable yes. But they did not have the money to keep operating in the short term.
Oh by the way... A major German Bank, now called "Germanys most stupid bank" transfered over 300 million euro to lehman on the monday they filed for bancupcy. Since its even a governemnt bank... the one that owned IKB when it went bust, its a major scandal now.. :P
Paul D'Hoore, Belgium's best analyst in these matters, says that the banks have lost their confidence in each other and that that makes the crisis even worse.If thats your best analyst i nthat matters, you need to get new ones... as That has been the case like a year ago. Inter-bank lending rates have skyrocketed already long ago...
Back on topic:
A friend of mine just told me that the American Bank has supported AIG with ca.70 billion $ in exchange for an 80% majority of shares...
This action had an immediate reaction in the rest of the world, the values of other bank/insurrance shares have stopped dropping too fast. Now they are even with yesterday, a little lower or even a little higher.
Congratz USA, after causing the problems, you have solved them. That would be a first...That did not solve the problem, but made it worse.. and it really pisses me off.
If i was any of your americans, i'd be sueing off AIGs arse right now.
They deliberately wanted to be saved by the govenrment. Allianz wanted to take over major parts of AIG which would have saved it... Munich RE was also interested in alrge parts of AIG. But AIG rejected them and would rather be saved on the tax payers wallet. good job.:cursing:
It is impossible to go into bankruptcy when you don't borrow money. The article that Z cited said they were net roughly 150 billion dollars in debt. DUH! Of course there is going to be trouble. Debt = risk. They had a ton of debt and therefore a ton of risk. They made stupid choices and it came back to bite them. Sure- the economy has slowed a little, but if you haven't made stupid choices, it's still good enough to thrive.of course you can. the problem was not that Lehman had too much debt, but noone wanted to keep lending to them. Imo it was even part of a Barclays scheme.. They wanted to take over parts of Lehman and that would have saved them. But they said no and Lehman went bust. The same day they offered buying the same parts again at a much lower price... wtf.
But back to bancrupcy... To tell a company to stop borrowing is jsut plain stupid. on average around 75% of any companies capital is borrowed money. If noone would borrow money to expand, we'd have pretty much no large company left, since noone.. especialy not the amreican ones, can finance their extensive expansion without debt.
Finance 101. Stop borrowing money in a lot of cases means, stop growing. It called leveraging.
The really funny part is non of us, and I mean non of us are
Finacial experts
Politica experts
Religeon experts
and even the "experts" are only speculating.
without beeign an expert i do think i am able to calaim a lot of knowledge. seeign that i've got liek 4 years of tradign and investemtn experience.. bought my first mutual fund and stocks when i was 11, 10 years ago..
I have studied economics for over 2 years now and keep constant and thurough tabs on financial, economic and busienss news (4 magazines, 2 financial newspapers and about hal a dozen online newsletters aimed towards professional traders)
i even once argued with a Goldman Sachs Eurity Research Associate on their Sell recommendation of adidas and said it was wrong during an internship interview... A week or two later they upgraded it. :P
Where does this money come from? The US people. So to help the US people you are going to take money from the US people? I know what you meant, but it was just funny to see. Yeah, the only way is to print money, and that is alot more dangerous and has longer term effects.
Some institutions are too big to let fail, i understand that, however there are many more that just need to fail. If every business though there would be a bail out, then they wouldn't have to worry about repercussions from being reckless. The sooner they fail, the sooner we can get out of a recession and get back on track.
Japan tried something similar back in the 90s, and it took them a very long time to get out of it. AIG should not have been saved by the government If it really is too big to fail, someone else will do it. In fact there were plans to do so. But AIG wanted to be saved by the governemnt.
I saw a part of Bush's speech o nthat stuff the other day... To me it sounded like "I have no idea whats going on, but i'm doign stuff and spending tax payers moeny on it. My advisers don't have much of a clue either. We all don't know how the economy works".
youngwebsolutions
09-23-2008, 08:50
talking about stupid things..
did you guys notice that the european intercompany interest rate for 3 months (the rate banks loan each other money) was negative last friday..
realise what this means: ONe bank which has money, is paying another bank to take a loan!!
So you get money for taking out a loan!!
this lasted for about 1/2 an hour!!
banks are crazy!!
is not hostile, all it is is a request on facts proving the Administration is responsible for the market problem. That is all I am asking.
Yes it is a trerrible thing, not only for this country but for the global economy. I agree. But, they bank itself it responsible for it's own failure. It isn't the war, it isn't the cabinet members, it isn't the president that did this, the bank's own greed did this. They are now suffering from the mortgage crisis that has gripped our country for a couople years now. But that too was caused by the banking industry, not the administration.
Dogma actually I have to disagree with you on this one. While you are correct that the housing crisis cannot be directly tied to W it can be tied back to the policies of Clinton. If we look into why banks were making sub prime mortgages and offering loans to people who did not need to prove income and who honestly had no real hope of paying back the loan they were taking we end up at the feet of the democrats. To give you a name I will start with Janet Reno. The policy of pressuring banks, specifically Fanny and Freddy in the beginning, to offer mortgages to low income families and minorities began with her. The Clinton administration made it a hallmark of their policy to end what is called redlining and in turn the percentage of subprime mortgages that the two GSEs held went over 50%.
To those of you who think Obama is the salvation for this problem ask yourself how he can have two former officers of these two organizations as economic advisores. If you truly believe he stands for change you are living in a fairly tale, and hopefully I can come visit you when I need a break from Reallity.
Finally if we truly want to look for solutions to the current economic woes the only true solution is to get government the hell out of the way. The United States Government helped to create this problem by encouraging the mortgage crisis which led to the credit problems, and by this I do mean government in its entirity. The democrats sought to appease their voters (i.e. minorities) and the republicans (while a few like McCain tried to reform Freddy and Fanny) basically stood idle while the system was manipulated so there is plenty of blame to go around. Why then should we trust these same people to fix the problems they created. Instead tell em to stay the hell out and let the private sector take care of itself that is why its called the private sector.
Dogma actually I have to disagree with you on this one. While you are correct that the housing crisis cannot be directly tied to W it can be tied back to the policies of Clinton. If we look into why banks were making sub prime mortgages and offering loans to people who did not need to prove income and who honestly had no real hope of paying back the loan they were taking we end up at the feet of the democrats. To give you a name I will start with Janet Reno. The policy of pressuring banks, specifically Fanny and Freddy in the beginning, to offer mortgages to low income families and minorities began with her. The Clinton administration made it a hallmark of their policy to end what is called redlining and in turn the percentage of subprime mortgages that the two GSEs held went over 50%.
To those of you who think Obama is the salvation for this problem ask yourself how he can have two former officers of these two organizations as economic advisores. If you truly believe he stands for change you are living in a fairly tale, and hopefully I can come visit you when I need a break from Reallity.
Finally if we truly want to look for solutions to the current economic woes the only true solution is to get government the hell out of the way. The United States Government helped to create this problem by encouraging the mortgage crisis which led to the credit problems, and by this I do mean government in its entirity. The democrats sought to appease their voters (i.e. minorities) and the republicans (while a few like McCain tried to reform Freddy and Fanny) basically stood idle while the system was manipulated so there is plenty of blame to go around. Why then should we trust these same people to fix the problems they created. Instead tell em to stay the hell out and let the private sector take care of itself that is why its called the private sector.
I actually stated this somewhere else, possibly this thread. The Clinton Administration did rescind most of the regulating authority during his "booming economy".
http://forums.nation-wars.com/showthread.php?t=3288&page=2
Here it is. This crisis has been coming for years. The banking industry had to find more creative ways to make the CEO's and account managers salaries so they found a way to do it. Now we see the results of their creative accounting.
As we can see.. the free market liaison faire Capitalism Is at its last leg.
No longer can Amerika use its coercive diplomacy to persuade the rest of the world that Neo-Capitalism is the way to go.
As time passes and markets adjust, major changes will develop, and a new balance between socialism and capitalism will slowly emerge as the clear form of economic equality.
Finally the tides have changed, no longer is America the most powerful country on the planet.
Z
Even if the US did lose it's superpower status over this, having China as the next one isn't all that attractive.
Mr President
09-25-2008, 21:38
As we can see.. the free market liaison faire Capitalism Is at its last leg.
No longer can Amerika use its coercive diplomacy to persuade the rest of the world that Neo-Capitalism is the way to go.
As time passes and markets adjust, major changes will develop, and a new balance between socialism and capitalism will slowly emerge as the clear form of economic equality.
Finally the tides have changed, no longer is America the most powerful country on the planet.
Z
Everyday you have some sort of message to slam the USA.. Must be a full time job carrying around all this hate.. Might want to see a shrink :)
What we are seeing now will pass. it always does. Sometimes the tree grows so fast the roots can't catch up.
And it is no secret that the US will end up losing it's economic power status. I mean really how can it keep up when our population is so small compared to China.. But like Will said, i'm not looking forward to China being a economic super power.. :scared: Perhaps if China would help the traade deficit some other nations might have a chance to grow too.. Including yours! But that's another story.
Will the US go through some hard times? Yes. Is it good for us? Yes. Sometimes we get so use to having it so good, we forget how delicate the balance really is. Perhaps now people will start waking up and paying attention to who we elect into office and start holding them accountable.
But the US will always be the worlds military Super Power. So it's not like we are just packing up our bags and burning the tee pees and moving to another country.. The US will come through this just fine and infact i think we will end up stronger then before..
But you keep on ranting and raving and hating us while you go to sleep under the blanket of freedom and protection we give you.. No thank you needed, that's ok..
You want to complain and debate issues about our leaders, fine i am more then happy to have them here. But your constant bashing of my country is pissing me off. Not all American are bad and evil and when you keep saying things about our empire crashing bla bla bla, your talking about my home. My way of life. My kids future and my kids security. So i don't take to kindly to your comments. Perhaps you can step outside your own pot smoked filled box long enough to understand that there are other people who are involved in this situation. Some who are young and have no control over what is going on. So maybe you could atleast act like you care a little and show some respect for the trials that some people are going through.
good day!
I really don't see what the US has protected Canada from, Pres. Even if the US vanished tomorrow, the only two countries that could realistically invade Canada are China and Russia. Since invading Canada would draw a hostile response from the Commonwealth and the EU, it wouldn't be worth the trouble.
socialism is an evil and has never worked and will never work. Capitalism fails when you try to shove socialism down its throat. Capitalism gives every man and woman the chance to make what ever they want out of life. if you decided to not give a **** and have a ****ty life, then so be it.
European style socialism, as long as it isn't abused, is a vastly superior system to the laissez faire, screw the poor system of the US. Poverty is rarely self inflicted.
Washington Mutual (or WaMu; NYSE: WM) was the United States' largest savings and loan association.
On September 25, 2008, The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation announced that it is seizing WaMu and will sell most of its assets to JPMorgan Chase.
This is (again) the Biggest bank failure in the history of the WORLD.
Stop wasting money in Iraq!
(and do not be so retarded as to question what Iraq has to do with US finance this time, please)
Z
You could put this in the other thread.
Instead of finger pointing at politicians/parties of past actions. I'm for real solutions, and to find a solution you got to find where the problem started. I've been doing an a lot of reading on the subject in order for my feeble mind to try and understand where it all started. Now I've had my personal opinion on where it started, but Dogmas statement made me go back and really look, to see what changed.
I found one thing in particular that I felt like really re enforced my opinion on the problem. Back when i was a little more clueless, and working 80-90 hours a week, in 1999 a bill was passed that reversed a bill passed by Franklin Roosevelt. The Glass-Stegle act main purpose was to keep Investment Banks from becoming Banking Institutions. One part of the deregulation was the Gramm-Leach-Biely act which basically allowed Investment banks to become banking institutions with hardly any oversight. This allowed them to slice and dice investments, make instruments such as mortgage backed securities, derivatives, and all other kind of creative packages that remove the risk from the loaning companies.
Until we start regulating companies like these, there is plenty more pain in the system. These companies have a bonus atmosphere that will always make them strive for risk.I'm not real optimistic going forward.
Disorder
09-25-2008, 22:42
Yes, could we designate a portion of the forums to Z and his bashing of America?
Who would mod it? Z himself?
Z: US sucks!
US poster: no it doesn't!
Z: you're perm banned!
:P
Disorder
09-25-2008, 23:02
Haha.. good point.. maybe we could make it only viewable to Z?!?!?!?!?!
Bush gave a speach last night on tv...blaming everyone but himself...it made me sick. STOP SPENDING MONEY WE DONT NEED TO SPEND, and making AMERICANS live in fear that is not there.
when i say that i have a better chance being struck by lightning than dying in a terrorist attack, i am not that far off statistically.
37000+ people die each year in car crashes. that is way more than US citz dying from terror attacks in the same annual time period.
to me he looked like a complete idiot playing the blame game, and then trying to tell me that my tax dollars need to bail out what could have been prevented by people living in less financial fear.
is it a coincidence that housing markets dropped once the confidence of americans fighting in a war that is dredging our federal reserve and making our dollar plumit to all time record lows against foreigh currency! i think not.
USA bank set a record and -Z- gets all hissy?
WOOT GO USA!
USA! USA!
Bush gave a speach last night on tv...blaming everyone but himself...it made me sick. STOP SPENDING MONEY WE DONT NEED TO SPEND, and making AMERICANS live in fear that is not there.
As the Dictactor of America, we have to do everything he says. He has complete control of the economy and all other facets of our everyday lives.
We have no one to blame but ourselves. So, if you are an American citizen, stop trying to play the blame game and accept the fact you are at fault in some way.
You guys are *****.
If you dont give a **** about the USA and the important things going on then dont read my thread.Do no bash me because I am making a relevant point.
holy ****.
The biggest bank failure in the history of the world.... and its not important enough for its own thread?
You ****ing ignorance sickens me.
I have family in the US and I care about them. If you dont give a **** about the US economy then dont read.
Z
Disorder
09-25-2008, 23:12
Bush gave a speach last night on tv...blaming everyone but himself...it made me sick. STOP SPENDING MONEY WE DONT NEED TO SPEND, and making AMERICANS live in fear that is not there.
when i say that i have a better chance being struck by lightning than dying in a terrorist attack, i am not that far off statistically.
37000+ people die each year in car crashes. that is way more than US citz dying from terror attacks in the same annual time period.
to me he looked like a complete idiot playing the blame game, and then trying to tell me that my tax dollars need to bail out what could have been prevented by people living in less financial fear.
is it a coincidence that housing markets dropped once the confidence of americans fighting in a war that is dredging our federal reserve and making our dollar plumit to all time record lows against foreigh currency! i think not.
Maggio, your also playing the blame game... now lets not play the blame game, its time to play the fix it game.
What works in theory will never work in reality. You cannot say that socialism or capitalism is better than the other.
And as for China being the next superpower, I am not looking forward to that either. China needs to reform, but that is neither here or there.
I thought the Era of Investment Banking was over. I heard it on BNN the other day, how new regulations would basically turn them into commercial banks like how we have here in Canada.
Example: CIBC (commercial), and CIBC WorldMarkets (investment) are two branches of the same company, so thus the investment branch cannot go off and do its own thing.
Or am I completely off the mark?
Capitalism and Socialism need to be balanced out, equally.
Pure socialism, or capitalism do not work.
a balance must be had.
Z
Everyday you have some sort of message to slam the USA.. Must be a full time job carrying around all this hate.. Might want to see a shrink :)
What we are seeing now will pass. it always does. Sometimes the tree grows so fast the roots can't catch up.
And it is no secret that the US will end up losing it's economic power status. I mean really how can it keep up when our population is so small compared to China.. But like Will said, i'm not looking forward to China being a economic super power.. :scared: Perhaps if China would help the traade deficit some other nations might have a chance to grow too.. Including yours! But that's another story.
Will the US go through some hard times? Yes. Is it good for us? Yes. Sometimes we get so use to having it so good, we forget how delicate the balance really is. Perhaps now people will start waking up and paying attention to who we elect into office and start holding them accountable.
But the US will always be the worlds military Super Power. So it's not like we are just packing up our bags and burning the tee pees and moving to another country.. The US will come through this just fine and infact i think we will end up stronger then before..
But you keep on ranting and raving and hating us while you go to sleep under the blanket of freedom and protection we give you.. No thank you needed, that's ok..
You want to complain and debate issues about our leaders, fine i am more then happy to have them here. But your constant bashing of my country is pissing me off. Not all American are bad and evil and when you keep saying things about our empire crashing bla bla bla, your talking about my home. My way of life. My kids future and my kids security. So i don't take to kindly to your comments. Perhaps you can step outside your own pot smoked filled box long enough to understand that there are other people who are involved in this situation. Some who are young and have no control over what is going on. So maybe you could atleast act like you care a little and show some respect for the trials that some people are going through.
good day!
I do not take kindly to your presumptions about my opinions, statements, and questions.
When Did I say I hate America? When did I say I hate the people of America?
I have said neither, in fact I have said that America IS THE GREATEST COUNTRY ON EARTH, and that its people are beautiful, just like any other.
BUT YOU ALL IGNORE THAT IT SEEMS.
You focus on the status quo that is prevails in todays global opinion:
America is Bad.
So how about you stop ignoring what I actually say, and read!
It seems perhaps many Americans have a problems with assumptions. You assume that I hate you. You assume that just because your government causes so much destruction and suffering, that everything everyone else says about you is negative.
(I bet you are getting all riled up right now, just because I spoke the words destruction and suffering)
So stop a minute, and realize that most people are forgiving, and that people realize that it is not the people of america that have made these destructive decisions, it is the corrupt government.
I wonder if your anger will even Let you admit that many of the choices made by your administration are rooted in Greed and deception?
Lets be honest.
When I criticize America, it is not because I hate you.
I repeat as I have said so often, the people of america are great!
I want to help America by pointing out its flaws so its people can take action!
Now please instead of bashing me, take some action!
Mr P. - My way of life is similar, Your kids securities are gone, because of war, financial deceit and bad decisions. do u realize that as I write this your government is about to pass a 700B $ bill and hand that money to a few people? After several other multi Billion $ bills this year.
i dont hate anyone, or anything, thats a waste of time.
And the only thing I would have to fear as a Canadian is being linked to America in some way, and attacked by terrorists, that were trained and funder By America. (Binladen and Co.)
Don't hand me a cup of liquid **** and call it a chocolate milkshake!
Get your **** together in your country man. dont just sit back in ignorance while u bash people who point out problems.
And do not accuse me of hate.
Z
do u realize that as I write this your government is about to pass a 700B $ bill and hand that money to a few people? After several other multi Billion $ bills this year.
Z
Actually, the House Republicans blew the deal up earlier today in the meeting. But i'm sure they'll succumb to the pressure tomorrow..
Everyday you have some sort of message to slam the USA.. Must be a full time job carrying around all this hate.. Might want to see a shrink :)
What we are seeing now will pass. it always does. Sometimes the tree grows so fast the roots can't catch up.
And it is no secret that the US will end up losing it's economic power status. I mean really how can it keep up when our population is so small compared to China.. But like Will said, i'm not looking forward to China being a economic super power.. :scared: Perhaps if China would help the traade deficit some other nations might have a chance to grow too.. Including yours! But that's another story.
Will the US go through some hard times? Yes. Is it good for us? Yes. Sometimes we get so use to having it so good, we forget how delicate the balance really is. Perhaps now people will start waking up and paying attention to who we elect into office and start holding them accountable.
But the US will always be the worlds military Super Power. So it's not like we are just packing up our bags and burning the tee pees and moving to another country.. The US will come through this just fine and infact i think we will end up stronger then before..
But you keep on ranting and raving and hating us while you go to sleep under the blanket of freedom and protection we give you.. No thank you needed, that's ok..
You want to complain and debate issues about our leaders, fine i am more then happy to have them here. But your constant bashing of my country is pissing me off. Not all American are bad and evil and when you keep saying things about our empire crashing bla bla bla, your talking about my home. My way of life. My kids future and my kids security. So i don't take to kindly to your comments. Perhaps you can step outside your own pot smoked filled box long enough to understand that there are other people who are involved in this situation. Some who are young and have no control over what is going on. So maybe you could atleast act like you care a little and show some respect for the trials that some people are going through.
good day!
Also I do not smoke Marijuana much anymore, last time I had a toke was a month or so ago.
I am not attacking anyone, just criticizing, where it is due.
A shrink? I do not think that would help me much, I have studied psychology in school in depth, and have been through alot in my personal life that was a lot harder to deal with than the realization of US financial collapse.
And you are correct, of course this will pass, just like the depression passed, I am only hoping that a new form of politics and economy will emerge.
Z
Merged with tthe bank failure thread. We have enough of these, start doing it all in one place
Mr President
09-26-2008, 08:44
Bush gave a speach last night on tv...blaming everyone but himself...it made me sick. STOP SPENDING MONEY WE DONT NEED TO SPEND, and making AMERICANS live in fear that is not there.
when i say that i have a better chance being struck by lightning than dying in a terrorist attack, i am not that far off statistically.
37000+ people die each year in car crashes. that is way more than US citz dying from terror attacks in the same annual time period.
to me he looked like a complete idiot playing the blame game, and then trying to tell me that my tax dollars need to bail out what could have been prevented by people living in less financial fear.
is it a coincidence that housing markets dropped once the confidence of americans fighting in a war that is dredging our federal reserve and making our dollar plumit to all time record lows against foreigh currency! i think not.
You think this now cause a nuke hasn't been detonated in the US yet.. Everyday they are scheming up plans to do so. They don't like us and they want all of us dead. So i think we do need to spend some money trying to find them before they find us.
But the money we are spending in Iraq does need to be cut drastically. They have somewhere around a 70billion surplus and we are still spending billions over there? It's time we take the training wheels off and let them ride themselves.
You guys are *****.
If you dont give a **** about the USA and the important things going on then dont read my thread.Do no bash me because I am making a relevant point.
holy ****.
The biggest bank failure in the history of the world.... and its not important enough for its own thread?
You ****ing ignorance sickens me.
I have family in the US and I care about them. If you dont give a **** about the US economy then dont read.
Z
Z your posts about America do not come off as you care about what is happening. They comes off as a reason for you to make a post slamming our nation. Every time i read one of your posts about America, i envision you being the kind that every time something bad happens, you throw your hands up and say see America sucks, i knew this would happen... it gets old reading all the time.
Most people on here will debate things with you, but constantly bashing us over every little thing gets on peoples nerves. I know this may be hard to believe, but not everything is America's fault. :P
Mr President
09-26-2008, 08:49
oh and about Washington Mutual, i have a credit card through them. I have had one for years, made payments on time, payed off balances in full, never was late, seemed like an ideal customer.. Then about 2 months ago i get a letter in the mail from them saying that due to recent changes in my credit history they are forced to lower my credit line.. I was like what the hell, nothing changed in my credit record, it's the same if not better then when i got there card.. So i sent an email to them and keep getting the run around.
Now i see it's not my credit that is bad, it is there credit that is bad and i am paying the price for there mess ups. Not only did they screw me with my credit line, my tax dollars are being used to pay for there mistakes!
Some may think that lowering a credit line isn't all that bad, well what happens is they have lowered it so much that now it makes my card look maxed, which lowers credit scores.. So i'm extremely pissed over this and plan on dragging this out as long as i have to till they put it back the way it was. Every monday they get a call from me... We will see how many monday's it takes lol..
Mr President
09-26-2008, 09:11
Z i did not mean to take it all out on you. So i will apologize for taking your head off. it was a stressful day and this whole economy deal has me so ticked off cause there is no reason we need to be here.
Though you may not hate America, your posts come off as you do. You create a thread, slam something we have done, and it doesn't seem like you are doing anything but shedding hate towards us and blaming us for everything. Perhaps it's not that we don't read when you are trying to say, but we don't understand. Your right, when we see you say something about our country we automatically feel you are bashing us in some way.
You have no idea how much talking i do to people about politics and what is happening and been happening. I voted for Bush, BOTH TIMES! Am i excited to announce that? No i'm not, but BOTH times he ran, the other side didn't have anyone better. For years this nation has had to chose between the lessor of 2 evils. It's either a Bush or a Clinton.. I am so thankful that NEITHER are a choice today. Even though some say McCain is a Bush Jr, i don't think he is. But i listen very hard to both candidates and what they say and then i match them up with there voting records.. I love the internet, it is so easy to find this information quickly.. Which is another reason why i get so frustrated with people. information today is so easy to come by. So there is no reason for people to sit on there asses and do nothing.
How many times have you seen me post in these forums about how we need to make these politicians accountable for there actions.. My god when will this happen? How many more times does someone need to be screwed in the ars before they get the point.
People are frustrated with the way the country is right now. And we all want to blame bush and ect ect ect, well WE THE PEOPLE are the ones to blame. We have the power to elect our leaders and WE THE PEOPLE are the governments boss.. But little by little they strip this from us. The government loves it when there is mass panic. it allows them to strip more from us. They sit back and say, see this is why we need to take control of these things, cause you people mess it up. And many Americans sit back and so uh ok, sure thing, no problem just send me my free money so my life can go on as usual.
We need to stop funding, policing and bossing the world. We need to take care of people at home first. We can only be as strong as our foundation.
Many of the things you say are very true. Which may also be a reason people get mad at you. They know the truth, but don't want to admit it.
It's easy for us to blame someone else for the current problems. but it's our own fault. We keep letting these scandals happen all the time. And right now, nobody cares about how we got here, they just want it fixed so they can get back on with there lives.. IT CAN'T happen like this. We have to strip it all down and build it back up the right way.
Why would anyone loan people 400,000 to buy a house when they only make 23,000 a year? What the hell were these people thinking? of course we want people to own there own home, but we have to face the fact that not everyone is able too. I'm 35yrs old and it took me a long time to be able to afford to own my own home and still keep up with life's other expenses. Sure i always wanted one, but i understood that i couldn't afford it.
Anyway, i truely hope that this will wake the American people up so they start getting involved and making these crooks accountable. One voice is nothing, but 300million is something... And we need to take back our country from the government... I don't know how much clearer things need to be that they can't handle the tasks of taking care of things without us!
Sorry so long :D
Mr President
09-26-2008, 09:14
Also I do not smoke Marijuana much anymore, last time I had a toke was a month or so ago.
Z
oh and congrats on this.. Shows strength to give it up!
that credit card issue was a perfect example about why this crap is so messed up, and why i am so pissed off. I didnt over purchase crap and get a house on a 100% interest loan (arm) like all of these jerk offs did, and now that I want to go buy a house and I have the money lined up I cant get the same loan I should be able to get, because everyone is tightening up the credit....this is bs.
Ask any financial expert about why we are so screwed....there are many reasons, but the NUMBER ONE reason is the value of the american dollar and how it has gone down so much. The NUMBER ONE reason it is so low is because the US is in history debt to other countries like CHINA. WHOS FAULT IS THAT!? Dont accuse me of playing the blame game, why would bush even care about me, he is rich, why would McCain care about me he is worth 100M you think he cares. Even if he looses half he still have 50M. Obamam is worth 1M i think he is gonna care if he looses half dont you.
Since the terror alert warning system has been up it has never dropped below level 3. Guess what guys...its allways been a level 3 even before 911.
Yah we gotta spend a little bit of money to prevent nuclear attacks Mr P., but i dout the poor *** Iraqis got what it takes... I dout we are even spending 10% of the money on fighting real terrorists over there. We have dug ourselves deep over there, and dont have enough money to even fight terror effectively in other regeons of the world.
I wonder what we are spending in afganstan, vs iraq? You know what it doesnt even matter because al queda is everywere! They are were we are not!
WE ARE LOOSING THIS WAR. We live in terror, our money is worth crap, people are starving, loosing jobs, becoming less educated, business are failing, retirement funds are drying up, oil prices are up.
Osama bin Laden is no dumb ***, he is winning this fight. Not through casualties, but through the effects of terror. He killed a few thousand, 6 years later he is effecting millions of americans, and billions of dollars. He has the right to take full credit for his sucess. It is almost like he knew exactly what Bush would do.
Mr President
09-26-2008, 09:30
I heard yesterday that China has decided to stop loaning us money cause the US is now a credit risk.. Will be interesting to see how this all turns out.
Personally I live in a cash economy. If I can't afford it, I don't get it. Seems simple enough.
ooga booga
09-26-2008, 11:52
that credit card issue was a perfect example about why this crap is so messed up, and why i am so pissed off. I didnt over purchase crap and get a house on a 100% interest loan (arm) like all of these jerk offs did, and now that I want to go buy a house and I have the money lined up I cant get the same loan I should be able to get, because everyone is tightening up the credit....this is bs.
Ask any financial expert about why we are so screwed....there are many reasons, but the NUMBER ONE reason is the value of the american dollar and how it has gone down so much. The NUMBER ONE reason it is so low is because the US is in history debt to other countries like CHINA. WHOS FAULT IS THAT!? Dont accuse me of playing the blame game, why would bush even care about me, he is rich, why would McCain care about me he is worth 100M you think he cares. Even if he looses half he still have 50M. Obamam is worth 1M i think he is gonna care if he looses half dont you.
Since the terror alert warning system has been up it has never dropped below level 3. Guess what guys...its allways been a level 3 even before 911.
Yah we gotta spend a little bit of money to prevent nuclear attacks Mr P., but i dout the poor *** Iraqis got what it takes... I dout we are even spending 10% of the money on fighting real terrorists over there. We have dug ourselves deep over there, and dont have enough money to even fight terror effectively in other regeons of the world.
I wonder what we are spending in afganstan, vs iraq? You know what it doesnt even matter because al queda is everywere! They are were we are not!
WE ARE LOOSING THIS WAR. We live in terror, our money is worth crap, people are starving, loosing jobs, becoming less educated, business are failing, retirement funds are drying up, oil prices are up.
Osama bin Laden is no dumb ***, he is winning this fight. Not through casualties, but through the effects of terror. He killed a few thousand, 6 years later he is effecting millions of americans, and billions of dollars. He has the right to take full credit for his sucess. It is almost like he knew exactly what Bush would do.
You said it yourself, you are not a Financial Expert. :) The Number #1 reason is not because of the U.S. dollar's value. We have been in debt for how many years? These big companies borrowed more money then they could afford. The housing market stalled, mortgages foreclosed, and the big companies didn't have the money to pay back their big loans they had borrowed, and that is why this crisis happened. The SEC didn't monitor anything and do it's job. The companies took these big risks and screwed themselves. This could have been avoided. It was NOT the fault of the war on terror. You liberals need to get your heads out of your butts. You guys can't wait to start pointing fingers and start the blame game. And you know what? You liberals do this on EVERY issue. You wonder why half the country has stopped listening to the pointless rants.
Rassputtin
09-26-2008, 12:50
I was going to quote you guys, but then it became too much of a burden to quote everyone. So I'll respond to the general commonalities I've read.
The economic recession is due specifically to the president. Any statement or belief in that train of thought is idiotic.
The president does not set interest rates. The president does not decide to save or not save companies. The president does not pass bills, or repeal laws that allow companies to make bad decisions. The PRESIDENT did not vote on war in Iraq. The president does not do alot of the things that uneducated individuals assume the president has the power and full authority to do. There is a reason the United States government is a 3 branch government of which contained is the congress. I don't care which party your for, NO president votes enough times in congress to get things passed or repealed. Seriously think about what you say before you say it.
Secondly I'll comment on the side note about Mac and Bam. Niether is going to do what they say they will do. Niether has the authority to do what they say they are gonna do. (please see above paragraph). The reality is that both of these candidates will remain within party lines. Obama's votes are what 90% along the line. In truth you don't get nominated as a party contestant by the party for the biggest office in the country, without being a "company man" for the party. Both contestants are more of the same. And you can't even say more of the same "bush" or "clinton". Its further and deeper than that. Its a question of do you want more of the same Rep policies or more of the same Dem policies.
Seriously you think McCain would get the nod from republicans if he was gonna come out and make abortion legal? Not likely chief.
Now to the actual economic situation that is being discussed.
Bottom line - Companies and people are greedy. Greed causes individuals and the corporate entities they represent to engage in bad decisions. Bad decisions are different than simply taking risks. Risks can be..... calculated to a certain extent in an attempt to minimize risk versus reward. But bad decisions are those where the risk far outshines the potential reward for the endeavor.
Capitalism and our economy is a giant circle. It is one of the easiest places to see that every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
Global variables hit each market and cause an effect. Take the opec. Oil costs increased. Consumer dollars devoted to that product were increased. Decreasing the avialable dollars for use in other markets and products. So those markets and products suffer. The suffering of those markets and products affect other markets and products and before you know it, they are all suffering.
When the economy recesses, people tighten their pocketbooks, this causes business to tighten thier pocketbooks, no longer lendign money to eachother or consumers. Consumers and business without access to credit in an economy that is more or less based on credit makes for tough times. Those tought times turn into really tough times when business start closing. The problem is then compouned by unemployment and layoffs, dividend cuts and so forth.
Making the purse strings even tighter. Business's and consumers can't get new credit. The failing economy causes consumers to be unable to pay their stupid option and subprime loans causing huge debt carriers like WAMU to falter.
I mean really they claimed a 3 billion second-quarter loss. I think TNova is right. The quicker the crumbling happens teh quicker the debree can be cleared and a sturdier foundation then built upon.
The scariest thing I thought about during this thing, particularly today with WAMU, was that had JP not bought the assets, had no one bought the assets and WAMU straigth crumbles, the FDIC then has to shell out the cash for the customers.
Problem is had they had to do that the FDIC would then be depleted. So then what happens if another goes belly up, where do the businesss's adn citizens get their money from.... if the FDIC is empty. Imagine the turmoil the sceanrio woudl casue.
EXCELLENT post Rass. Rep for you
I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG.
Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a 'We Deserve It Dividend'.
To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bonafide U.S. Citizens 18+.
Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up..
So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billon that equals $425,000.00.
My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a 'We Deserve It Dividend'.
Of course, it would NOT be tax free.
So let's assume a tax rate of 30%.
Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes.
That sends $25,500,000,000 right back to Uncle Sam.
But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket.
A husband and wife have $595,000.00.
What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family?
Pay off your mortgage - housing crisis solved.
Repay college loans - what a great boost to new grads
Put away money for college - it'll be there
Save in a bank - create money to loan to entrepreneurs.
Buy a new car - create jobs
Invest in the market - capital drives growth
Pay for your parent's medical insurance - health care improves
Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean - or else
Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+ including the folks who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company that is cutting back, and of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces.
If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it...instead of trickling out a puny $1000.00 ( 'vote buy' ) economic incentive that is being proposed by one of our candidates for President.
If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every adult U S Citizen 18+!
As for AIG - liquidate it.
Sell off its parts.
Let American General go back to being American General. Sell off the real estate.
Let the private sector bargain hunters cut it up and clean it up.
Here's my rationale. We deserve it and AIG doesn't.
Sure it's a crazy idea that can 'never work.'
But can you imagine the Coast-To-Coast Block Party!
How do you spell Economic Boom?
I trust my fellow adult Americans to know how to use the $85 Billion 'We Deserve It Dividend' more than I do the geniuses at AIG or in Washington DC .
And remember, The Family plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because $25.5 Billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam. Talk about a stimulus package!
Disorder
09-26-2008, 13:30
EXCELLENT post Rass. Rep for you
I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG.
Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a 'We Deserve It Dividend'.
To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bonafide U.S. Citizens 18+.
Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up..
So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billon that equals $425,000.00.
My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a 'We Deserve It Dividend'.
Of course, it would NOT be tax free.
So let's assume a tax rate of 30%.
Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes.
That sends $25,500,000,000 right back to Uncle Sam.
But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket.
A husband and wife have $595,000.00.
What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family?
Pay off your mortgage - housing crisis solved.
Repay college loans - what a great boost to new grads
Put away money for college - it'll be there
Save in a bank - create money to loan to entrepreneurs.
Buy a new car - create jobs
Invest in the market - capital drives growth
Pay for your parent's medical insurance - health care improves
Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean - or else
Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+ including the folks who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company that is cutting back, and of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces.
If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it...instead of trickling out a puny $1000.00 ( 'vote buy' ) economic incentive that is being proposed by one of our candidates for President.
If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every adult U S Citizen 18+!
As for AIG - liquidate it.
Sell off its parts.
Let American General go back to being American General. Sell off the real estate.
Let the private sector bargain hunters cut it up and clean it up.
Here's my rationale. We deserve it and AIG doesn't.
Sure it's a crazy idea that can 'never work.'
But can you imagine the Coast-To-Coast Block Party!
How do you spell Economic Boom?
I trust my fellow adult Americans to know how to use the $85 Billion 'We Deserve It Dividend' more than I do the geniuses at AIG or in Washington DC .
And remember, The Family plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because $25.5 Billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam. Talk about a stimulus package!
Great idea in my opinion.. but the way they are doing it, I bet you the CEO's and decision makers are going to be bathing in cash as they already are.. sad sad situation.
Mr President
09-26-2008, 13:58
Wamu is no more.. JP Morgan has bought them out.. :dblthumbup:
Wamu is no more.. JP Morgan has bought them out.. :dblthumbup:
The woman that used to be on Match Game?
$85 Billion 'We Deserve It Dividend'
a very good idea.
1st thing i have heard dogma say that I agree with in a long time.
Z
I thought the Era of Investment Banking was over. I heard it on BNN the other day, how new regulations would basically turn them into commercial banks like how we have here in Canada.
Example: CIBC (commercial), and CIBC WorldMarkets (investment) are two branches of the same company, so thus the investment branch cannot go off and do its own thing.
Or am I completely off the mark?
thats what its gonna look like for the big banks anyway.. no idea wher ML, MS or GS are gonna get retail banking arms from..
altho i knwo that GS at least does do private banking
but the aera of investmetn banks is not over.
The era of investment banks owning retail banks is beginnign and the era of smaller investment banks. People foroget that ther eis still hundereds of smaller independan investment banks around.
Ask any financial expert about why we are so screwed....there are many reasons, but the NUMBER ONE reason is the value of the american dollar and how it has gone down so much. The NUMBER ONE reason it is so low is because the US is in history debt to other countries like CHINA. WHOS FAULT IS THAT!?
Wal Mart. Consumer. You people.
Osama bin Laden is no dumb ***, he is winning this fight. Not through casualties, but through the effects of terror. He killed a few thousand, 6 years later he is effecting millions of americans, and billions of dollars. He has the right to take full credit for his sucess. It is almost like he knew exactly what Bush would do.Wow, did you jsut blme the credit cruch on bin laden?
Good points Ras.
I wish Dogma
Yes KLL this could be considered a spin off of terror and the effects of terror IMO.
I thought the Era of Investment Banking was over. I heard it on BNN the other day, how new regulations would basically turn them into commercial banks like how we have here in Canada.
Example: CIBC (commercial), and CIBC WorldMarkets (investment) are two branches of the same company, so thus the investment branch cannot go off and do its own thing.
Or am I completely off the mark?
Several Large Investment Banks applied to the Fed, and was accepted, to be declared as Bank Holding companies. Even the strongest of the Investment Banks, ones who have done the most marking down, are still struggling with liquidity. This will give them access to the Temporary borrowing window with the Fed, it also mean that they will be regulated like a bank. I just worry there are going to be unintended consequences from this action.
I read the other day where the world wide derivative market is 544 Trillion dollars, and has grown tremendously with in the past few years. Finacial Companies have enjoyed very nice gains in the last 4 years, but there is alot of glut there. We can expect some credit contraction, and i think it is a quite normal process in the ebs and flows of any economy.
There are strong and smart companies ready to pounce on dead companies who tried to play the system with debt and got played. There is going to be some pain for the whole world going forward, it is just a matter of how long do you want your pain. Governments needs to focus on tangible things, not i hope this 700B psychological trick works, like infrastructure and invest in companies/technologies that can create real jobs. Everything will come out on the back end okay if they do that.
I find it strange how so many people say things like:
"its a phase"
"this was bound to happen"
"any economy has its down times"
"It will all be ok in the end, JUST LIKE IT ALLWAYS IS"
Well your positive views are great, but its time to realize that none of this have ever been done before, we are doing things in 2008 that would not have been even thought of 20 years ago, there is no safety net.
I think its time we all wake up and take close note of what is going on, and do whatever is in our power to make changes, and not sit idle and watch, so this can all happen over again.
Z
Good points Ras.
I wish Dogma
Yes KLL this could be considered a spin off of terror and the effects of terror IMO.
like how? even i nthe remotest sense?
I find it strange how so many people say things like:
"its a phase"
"this was bound to happen"
"any economy has its down times"
"It will all be ok in the end, JUST LIKE IT ALLWAYS IS"
Well your positive views are great, but its time to realize that none of this have ever been done before, we are doing things in 2008 that would not have been even thought of 20 years ago, there is no safety net.
I think its time we all wake up and take close note of what is going on, and do whatever is in our power to make changes, and not sit idle and watch, so this can all happen over again.
Z
black swan theory.
and yyes it will happen again. similar things have happened ofte enuogh.
the economic cycle actually does somehow exist and you've jsut got a recession
you're just prtty much prnouncing the patent dead eventho he just has a flu
you must mean the bird flu :P lol
I certainly don't pretend to have all the answer and know how things will play out and really neither should you. The only way we will know 100% for sure is for it to play out over time. I will tell you that i have certainly done a lot of reading on the subject in order to be as educated as possible on the matter. I haven't just read headlines of your average reporters whose columns shout strictly fear and end of the world theories. Because lets face it, we are all just stating theories.
If you read anything in regards to economics, you would know that bubbles are normal part of the economics and in a lot of cases over history you can pretty much tell when things are going to happen on technical factors alone, not just the fundamentals. Peoples mentality end up running things up to where they are overvalued, the confidence of people and just human nature allows that to happen. There has to be a correction at some point, and you can find many instances over history of major bubble pops like the credit bubble we have been, and will be experiencing for some time.
I'm comfortable in my theory based off what I've read. My sources have been books,websites, and magazines of economic minds that deal strictly with business and economics. If you've read headlines of newspapers and websites, i could see how you would form your opinion.
you must mean the bird flu :P lol
go learn how to open a book first
Yes, and this is when millionaires are made.
Just saw this on wiki:
The Emergency Economic Stabilization Act is rejected by the U.S. House of Representatives, and the Dow Jones stock market index records its largest-ever one-day fall of 777.68 points.
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5gtV9iYF3f1VYz5BLkJE33nN0QZrQ
Rassputtin
09-29-2008, 20:30
Assuming the market and the world as we know it doesn't come crashing down on us.
Now is the time to get cheap stock. :p
I have a question... I am just looking for some opinion speculation at the answer.
How do you think this current economic situation will effect interest rates on money all ready borrowed?
I understand it will be harder in coming years to get loans, but how will this effect the ones currently there? for people that do plan to pay them, and do not miss payments?
I heard Tnova speak of some Deflation, sounds good to me! (considering I have no capital, just debt)
And will it matter if u have equity?
I have a loan at a variable interest rate... It started at 9%, its been 6 months and now it is down to 8%, I am wondering if it would be wise for me to lock my rate in soon, instead of a variable rate.
I suppose my question is, Will Prime go up or down, and will the average amount a bank wants to charge above prime go up or down?
U would think if anything it would go down... because if it goes up, it will be even harder for people to pay the loans they are struggling with.
?
Z
right now the housing rates on potencial loans are very very low despite what one would think.
Just an opinion, but I don't think that ppl with current loans, that are fixed rate, can go anywhere. Although I do think that the credit market will get even tighter than it is now as the confidence in ppl paying them back is low at this point because of so many shady loan practices in the recent past. Is hard to say if you would need to lock in your rate at this point as the market is so volatile right now.
nNiIcCkKoO
09-30-2008, 10:17
I strongly agree Dogma.
hm ok.
It is a large loan (20G) so even small adjustments in Interest rate will work on it significantly.
I will keep an eye on it...
leave it at variable for now.
Z
Expect interest rates to rise, to cover the buyouts and injections of cash to the credit markets central banks are creating cash at an increased rate, this ads inflationary pressure to the economy by diluting the value of the dollar, to combat this inflationary pressure the feds will raise interest rates and banks will follow suit on there loans.
so since the original Bill was shot down by the house (apparently by a few remaining sane members)
They decided to add a bunch of spending theey call "sweeteners" to the bill.
OMG.
It has passed in the senate, and will now be tested by the house again friday they say @ the new 850B$ level.
Word has it that if this Bill fails, they will up the price tag to 1.2 Trillion $, and also throw in a years free oral sex for all Politicians in America, from the best Dutch *****s available!
Z
Rassputtin
10-02-2008, 18:37
oh I browsed the 12 hottest escorts in amsterdam, and I would sign this bill in a second if the dutch *****es clause was in it.
oh I browsed the 12 hottest escorts in amsterdam, and I would sign this bill in a second if the dutch *****es clause was in it.
R u a Politician?
:tomatoes:
:tomatoes:
Z
Rassputtin
10-02-2008, 18:42
R u a Politician?
:tomatoes:
:tomatoes:
Z
no but with deals like that I **** well should be.
The great founder of Capitalism Jesus Christ (Our Lord Inc., Copyright pending) Clearly had an idea of great virtue when he invented Capitalism.
Enthusiastic Spending
Globalization
Squandering of valuable resources
assimilation of cultures
Imperial family values :dblthumbup:
Trillion Dollar government Loans
Ahhhh... These are but a few of the dreams Our great leader Jesus had...
Let us go now, and shop till we a drop!
Hurry now, the mall closes soon!
Z
Divine Intervention
10-02-2008, 21:14
Jesus invented capitalism?
Jesus invented capitalism?
of course! haven't you read the Bible?
Z
of course! haven't you read the Bible?
Z
yes, actually
What I saw was more socialism/communistic views
He distributed loaves of bread to all the people
Equality.
Doesn't seem capitalistic to me
eh capitalism is the natural state of a free market.
eh capitalism is the natural state of a free market.
way to state the obvious.
how an I top that one..... hmmm...
A Jack Russel Terrior is a dog.
Z
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