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::LD::GrimReapr
11-15-2008, 20:33
I see we have our first casualty of the Patriot Act. I would like to Discuss it with any and all who feel the need or would just like something different to discuss.

My personal feeling on this is as I stated before Isnt the same as suiciding.
Why some of you may ask,well let me explain my point of view be it a short one anyway.

1. Destructive spy ops can easily be stopped by you guessed it having spies and for those of you that didnt guess it there is the answer for you.

2. TDN some people use it and I think those are the people that dont have spies.Me personally havent used it yet except in tournament to see how it worked and its not something I will use or need since I personally have spies.

3. Suicides cannot be stopped regardless of what units you have no matter how many you have becasue said suicider will just out produce or buy said unit/units you dont have enough in.

Now you can feel free to pick apart this thread if you desire to do so if i didnt want someone or everyone elses opinion i wouldnt have posted this thread in the forums.
For any of you curious people out there I have used destructive spy ops in the past I wont lie about it nor do I feel the need too.
I didnt go ape sh*t and use up 200 turns or anything like that but I used 5 or 10 to teach/show someone it might be wise to get some spies.
I didnt do it maliciously or anything just a friendly reminder that there are other units out there besides Infantry.

Thats enough rambling from me again feel free to pick apart comment or bash this thread as you see fit im looking for other peoples opinions.

Thanks for your time and have a nice day.

Rassputtin
11-15-2008, 20:49
my personal opinion is that desructive ops on someone with 0 spies is not a suicide because of the random factor involved with ops and because having SOME spies is an easy way to prevent it.

Being that most times destructive ops are only done on people in war or when they have 0 spies, having SOME spies will deter anyone from doing destructive ops to you because they don't want to get caught.

You'll notice I made one post under the "Patriot Act" thread. That is that my preference is not admin interferance but code change and that it was good to see a step taken in the suicide prevention direction.

There was a reason I made only one post, and didnt comment on the act at all except i prefered not admin interference............

That reason is because I don't like the patriot act, I prefer code change, and I'll just leave it at that.

All due respect to everyone, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, but there is also a reason my posts and activity has declined to almost nothing.........................

I am in strong disagreance with a large majority of whats happening, whats not happening, whats planned on happening and whats not planned on happening.......... quite frankly i'm disgusted.

I'm borderline on whether or not I'm going to find someone with 0 spies and ram them with destructive ops, just to join the terrorist list on principle.

There is a difference between suicide protection, and enabling lame, stupid **** that is a major turn off to continued patronage of the game, like infantry hording and not having to carry ANY spies.

I'm sorry, but I had to say it.

Mr President
11-15-2008, 21:53
my personal opinion is that desructive ops on someone with 0 spies is not a suicide because of the random factor involved with ops and because having SOME spies is an easy way to prevent it.

Being that most times destructive ops are only done on people in war or when they have 0 spies, having SOME spies will deter anyone from doing destructive ops to you because they don't want to get caught.

You'll notice I made one post under the "Patriot Act" thread. That is that my preference is not admin interferance but code change and that it was good to see a step taken in the suicide prevention direction.

There was a reason I made only one post, and didnt comment on the act at all except i prefered not admin interference............

That reason is because I don't like the patriot act, I prefer code change, and I'll just leave it at that.

All due respect to everyone, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, but there is also a reason my posts and activity has declined to almost nothing.........................

I am in strong disagreance with a large majority of whats happening, whats not happening, whats planned on happening and whats not planned on happening.......... quite frankly i'm disgusted.

I'm borderline on whether or not I'm going to find someone with 0 spies and ram them with destructive ops, just to join the terrorist list on principle.

There is a difference between suicide protection, and enabling lame, stupid **** that is a major turn off to continued patronage of the game, like infantry hording and not having to carry ANY spies.

I'm sorry, but I had to say it.


I was once told that i can't please everyone even no matter how hard i try. Seems each set i learn this more and more.



I am in strong disagreance with a large majority of whats happening, whats not happening, whats planned on happening and whats not planned on happening.......... quite frankly i'm disgusted.

I guess i would need you to fill me in a bit more by what some of these things are, but pretty much every change i have made, about 95% of the people like it.

Also, if you read in the Patriot act you would have seen where i said this is a quick fix. I'm sorry i don't have lots of free days to sit and re write the whole attack, GB, and a few other codes to prevent suiciding at this time. And i'm sorry, but even if i did do it, there will still be a way around it and then people would be on here complaining about that. So i simply came up with this quick fix to help "slow it down" some.

And honestly, advertising that something would be done will also help limit the suicides.

Do you really think i want to spend even more time sitting here looking through attacks and past notes to try and figure out if it's a suicide or not? Sorry, i would rather be spending my time more wisely. And i'm sure Tnova would too.

Rass like 2 sets ago you sent me a PM asking if anything was going to be done about suiciding. So here i went and did something to help out, and your still not happy.. In fact your "disgusted". So i guess there really is nothing i can do to please you.

When i have the time i do plan on trying to make some changes to make it harder to suicide. But i just don't have it right now. My work day is sun up to sun down and then i do have a family i need to tend to as well. As many others here do too. We are doing the best we can. And we are trying to make changes that help the game. And i think the changes we have made will not only KEEP more members playing, it will attract more members too.
We will always lose a few members here and there cause they are not happy with certain changes.

and not to mention, we have had some ideas on suiciding prevention stuff for the code, but not a lot. It's not as easy as you may think it is. Change one little thing and the ripple effect goes down the line and you have to change tons of other things.

anyway, sorry your "disgusted". We are doing the best we can.

Mr President
11-15-2008, 22:22
I see we have our first casualty of the Patriot Act. I would like to Discuss it with any and all who feel the need or would just like something different to discuss.

My personal feeling on this is as I stated before Isnt the same as suiciding.
Why some of you may ask,well let me explain my point of view be it a short one anyway.

1. Destructive spy ops can easily be stopped by you guessed it having spies and for those of you that didnt guess it there is the answer for you.

2. TDN some people use it and I think those are the people that dont have spies.Me personally havent used it yet except in tournament to see how it worked and its not something I will use or need since I personally have spies.

3. Suicides cannot be stopped regardless of what units you have no matter how many you have becasue said suicider will just out produce or buy said unit/units you dont have enough in.

Now you can feel free to pick apart this thread if you desire to do so if i didnt want someone or everyone elses opinion i wouldnt have posted this thread in the forums.
For any of you curious people out there I have used destructive spy ops in the past I wont lie about it nor do I feel the need too.
I didnt go ape sh*t and use up 200 turns or anything like that but I used 5 or 10 to teach/show someone it might be wise to get some spies.
I didnt do it maliciously or anything just a friendly reminder that there are other units out there besides Infantry.

Thats enough rambling from me again feel free to pick apart comment or bash this thread as you see fit im looking for other peoples opinions.

Thanks for your time and have a nice day.


I understand what you are saying, but i don't know if you understand how this all really works.

The Patriot Act wasn't set up to babysit every little illegal or war attack. So if you go off and spend 3 or 4 turns bombing structures nothing is going to happen.

It's the massive bombings or attacks that we will go after.

Blowing up 200 buildings to get a point across is one thing. Blowing up over a thousand is another.

But i would like to point something out. Some in your nation say that admins should not be interfering and forcing ppl to play a certain way, but isn't this what your nation does? I mean you say that if you find they have no spies, then you bomb them to prove a point? And that's ok? But if someone suicides and i mark them a terrorist to prove a point that's not ok?

I'm kinda getting the feeling that only certain people's ideas are correct, but mine are not.

I find it funny that people get suicided and complain like crazy, but then have no problem going off and bombing other states to make a point.


*edit* just to be clear, i'm not speaking to just you grim.. i'm speaking in general. :-)

nNiIcCkKoO
11-15-2008, 22:30
Who suicided?

MAGGIO
11-15-2008, 22:31
that is super hot pink...the look pretty in pink.

Xav? wow...who is that other guy?

Will
11-15-2008, 22:53
Who suicided?

no one.

Cemetary
11-16-2008, 03:52
i was suicided earlier this set and i think a UBH state lost 10k building recently

Missionary
11-16-2008, 08:31
naughty naughty xaviour. sneaky little canadian :P lmao.

im confused about this thread. Grim ur not even marked as a terrorist lol.

Divine Intervention
11-16-2008, 08:38
that is super hot pink...the look pretty in pink.

Xav? wow...who is that other guy?

the person who ARed Cemetary from LoR.

Rassputtin
11-16-2008, 14:21
I was once told that i can't please everyone even no matter how hard i try. Seems each set i learn this more and more.


Or more appropriately, "you can't please all the people all the time" - Bob Marley.

Your and his are both very true. No arguement there.




I guess i would need you to fill me in a bit more by what some of these things are, but pretty much every change i have made, about 95% of the people like it.


Which is why 95% of the time I kept my mouth shut, and made no negative comments about what is taking place.... no negative comments on the patriot act thread, and no comments at all on the sanctions thread............



Also, if you read in the Patriot act you would have seen where i said this is a quick fix. I'm sorry i don't have lots of free days to sit and re write the whole attack, GB, and a few other codes to prevent suiciding at this time. And i'm sorry, but even if i did do it, there will still be a way around it and then people would be on here complaining about that. So i simply came up with this quick fix to help "slow it down" some.

You don't need to apologize for not having "full time" hours worth of time to re-write code. No one expects you to. When the game pays you full time wages then maybe people will expect you to put full time hours into its development. Make no mistake about that. I don't think anyone here will argue that you have displayed a "lack" of effort.

However keep in mind that there are other bright minds here that can help get things done. Myself amongst the many that are here that can code, and could and probably would help.

I don't see a whole lot of code posting and I removed the code I posted, but you are wrong that there will always be a way around it.

http://forums.nation-wars.com/showthread.php?t=3611 Is gone now cause I deleted everything but,

one of the key elements was a reverse readiness loss based on strength percentage per unit above 50. Meaning if any units military strength was 50% or more of your total military strength it reduced your readiness by a reverse percentage.

so if 90% of your total military strength is ships, your attacking at 10% readiness, forcing a balanced state with balanced units while still providing the freedom to choose which units to carry.

If anyone can come up with a way around that, so a suicider will be able to go 100% jets to suicide on a top state attacking at 0% readiness I'm all ears........? And if you ask me, forcing people to play smart, and eliminating suiciding is much better then enabling them to play stupid, still allowing suiciding but babysitting it.

It also provided many other things, already coded and ready for testing. My point is, others can help. You do have some time, but that time is spent on patriot act and sanctions..... basically i personally disagree with priority levels of whats being worked on, fixed and implemented.

But hey, its not my game.............. its yours. So like I said its my opinion so 95% of the time, particularly in the threads where you announce what your doing or adding, I dont' say anything, because when it comes down to it. Its your decision not mine, and if you got nothing nice to say.......



And honestly, advertising that something would be done will also help limit the suicides.

Indeed, it would help a bit.



Do you really think i want to spend even more time sitting here looking through attacks and past notes to try and figure out if it's a suicide or not? Sorry, i would rather be spending my time more wisely. And i'm sure Tnova would too.

I've never wanted either of you to have to....... if your remember I'm against admins having to waste time manually doing something. The whole point of my code change arguement.

I'm willing to bet that adding an array or a few lines of code to the attack scripts and testing them would take just as much time or less as adding terrorist systems and sanctions and manually reviewing potential suicides.




Rass like 2 sets ago you sent me a PM asking if anything was going to be done about suiciding. So here i went and did something to help out, and your still not happy.. In fact your "disgusted". So i guess there really is nothing i can do to please you.

Right and I said its good to see a step in the right direction when you posted the patriot act. But I'm a firm believer in do it until its done. You said yourself the patriot act is a bandaid. My disgust comes partially from the fact that once the band aid went on, you moved on, to sanctions and the like.

Suiciding can be eliminated. No loopholes, no work arounds.. done. It just takes some time. Time I see being spent manually looking through attacks and designing and implementing retals and sanctions.

But again, that could just be me. Perhaps it is a higher priority on my list then it is on the game owner's lists. Please don't take it personally. Consider it constructive criticism.




When i have the time i do plan on trying to make some changes to make it harder to suicide. But i just don't have it right now. My work day is sun up to sun down and then i do have a family i need to tend to as well. As many others here do too.

I understand RL is priority, as it is with everyone. No arguement.




We are doing the best we can. And we are trying to make changes that help the game. And i think the changes we have made will not only KEEP more members playing, it will attract more members too.
We will always lose a few members here and there cause they are not happy with certain changes.


We just have a difference of opinion, a different philosophy I suppose. I think that a broken sound card should be fixed before upgrading my video card. You think that a better video card will help people ignore the broken sound card.......

I'm not so much against additions and changes to make the game better, I am against additions and changes taking precedence over fixing whats already broken.

Fancy new layouts and added features may get more members to stay and play but for how long..... how long will they stare at the graphics of that upgraded video card before they realize the sound card is broken...?


and not to mention, we have had some ideas on suiciding prevention stuff for the code, but not a lot. It's not as easy as you may think it is. Change one little thing and the ripple effect goes down the line and you have to change tons of other things.
anyway, sorry your "disgusted". We are doing the best we can.

Taking my snippet as an example what ripples and other things would need to be changed by adding a few lines of code to modify the readiness of an attack?

I'm not ignorant to programming so I don't think that I underestimate the implications of code change as much as you may think I do.

It should be as OOP as possible, When you pull the values from the DB into the arrays utilized in the attack script, adding a few lines of code to

1. check if a unit is 50% or more of total military strength
2. modify the readiness value ( 60% ships = 40% readiness)
3. return to previously coded attack script.

Shouldnt require code changes in any other places but attacking or have to much of a ripple. And in one fell swoop you eliminate the classic suicide of someone going 100% of a unit and hobbling a top state.....

We will just have to agree to disagree.



I understand what you are saying, but i don't know if you understand how this all really works.

The Patriot Act wasn't set up to babysit every little illegal or war attack. So if you go off and spend 3 or 4 turns bombing structures nothing is going to happen.

It's the massive bombings or attacks that we will go after.

Blowing up 200 buildings to get a point across is one thing. Blowing up over a thousand is another.

But i would like to point something out. Some in your nation say that admins should not be interfering and forcing ppl to play a certain way, but isn't this what your nation does? I mean you say that if you find they have no spies, then you bomb them to prove a point? And that's ok? But if someone suicides and i mark them a terrorist to prove a point that's not ok?

I'm kinda getting the feeling that only certain people's ideas are correct, but mine are not.

I find it funny that people get suicided and complain like crazy, but then have no problem going off and bombing other states to make a point.


*edit* just to be clear, i'm not speaking to just you grim.. i'm speaking in general. :-)


As I stated, find one instance where a state with more than 0 spies has been the victim of thousands of buildings being blown up. Normally only people with 0 spies are victim of destructive op attacks or people at war.

There is a huge difference between having 4 million jets and getting beat by someone with 16 million cause thats all they have because THEY WANT TO SUICIDE YOU

and having 0 spies, and gettign destructive opped, when as I said before, having SOME spies 99.9% of the time will prevent you from EVER being destructive opped.

SO in summary the diefference is, destructive ops can and always have been 99% preventable by having some spies on hand, as normally unless you have 0 that is not the preferred method of "suicide" because if you have a spy peopel don't want to get caught.

Where as there is no amount of jets or ships you can have short of 100% which will leave you open in another area to prevent a suicider from going 100% in an area you are not strong in, in order to suicide you.


Huge difference. Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Fangz
11-16-2008, 14:45
one of the key elements was a reverse readiness loss based on strength percentage per unit above 50. Meaning if any units military strength was 50% or more of your total military strength it reduced your readiness by a reverse percentage.

so if 90% of your total military strength is ships, your attacking at 10% readiness, forcing a balanced state with balanced units while still providing the freedom to choose which units to carry.

If anyone can come up with a way around that, so a suicider will be able to go 100% jets to suicide on a top state attacking at 0% readiness I'm all ears........? And if you ask me, forcing people to play smart, and eliminating suiciding is much better then enabling them to play stupid, still allowing suiciding but babysitting it.

this is a good solution...but this puts a real stranglehold on people during upgrading.

if something like this were implemented it would probably be a good idea to show a breakdown of military strength in your state overview (like there is a breakdown of land in global/nation overviews). a pie chart or even just a % breakdown would help manage these figures without having to constantly run calculations. at the least, you should get a warning when you do go over 50% so you know to make corrections.

nosejam
11-16-2008, 14:49
Say that system was in place, would you be ok with it being removed if war was declared?

MarineRecon
11-16-2008, 14:57
geez y do we always have to change formulas it just makes it more confusing and i dont wanna have to relearn and figure out ways to make my gameplay better even more...i dont have all day long to sit here trying to figure out how these changes affect how i play and such thats to much its just a game...u shouldnt have to have spies if u dont want to...yeah if you go to war then ure screwed or if u want an intel u cant get it but y should sumbody have to have spies to prevent being suicided...hence the patriot act u shouldnt be suiciding in the first place

Divine Intervention
11-16-2008, 14:59
Rassputtin. tell me please. a good example would have been this set. after EX attacked they jumped to states that were like 15mill inf 5mill jets 6 mill ships. me and James were the only states able to break them. i was the only one who had enough stock (and turns to use it) + units on PM to jump ( i jumped 12mill inf 10mill jets 8mill ships). if we used your idea then my players would have all had to make states which would have been useless in a war. the only way we were able to kill the EX states is for my players to go jet heavy and break them by pure ARs (and then use the money accumilated over the strikes to get AA defence)...so if we had your 60% jets = 40% readiness rules then there would have been no chance for us :unsure: it totally screws the concept of breakers. how is someone supposed to kill a top state in a war if you don't have an equally good player who is also netting? you can't. you need a top stocker whod go heavy on a unit to allow his team mates to kill the target. as nosejam said, it would have to be modified for war. and also...what about people who have like ...1k spies 20k infantry. so do they have 0% readiness :unsure:?

Rassputtin
11-16-2008, 15:00
Say that system was in place, would you be ok with it being removed if war was declared?

It wouldnt have to be.... you don't need a breaker to go 100% ships, because if the person your trying to break is ship heavy above 50% thier readiness will be reduced... so with two balanced states why would you need to disable the system.

I imagine your referring to a situation where the target is too big for you, but If the target is just to large..... fail some attacks, get a big friend to help you out, disabling the system for war declaration will allow suiciders to make little nation with minimum amount of members, declare war disable the system adn suicide...............

Its just unrealistic an uncessary to allow other than for easy convenience of not having to network to get help from a bigger state or having a bigger state yourself.

But in the end its not my decision and has nothing to do with what I would be willing to allow or disallow. But if it was, i may be willing increase the percentage from 50% to something a little higher for war time declarations, but that would result in more code changes, and people declaring on some small nation for no reason just to increase the percentage....... disabling it for any reason in any way just requires more code to prevent abuse of disabling... if you keep it enabled your good to go.

Fangz
11-16-2008, 15:02
i like it all the time. it adds new breaking strategies during war that don't involve AA. u can now use sabotage airbases and kamikaze to lower readiness to 50% if a target state isn't balanced with ships and inf.

::LD::GrimReapr
11-16-2008, 15:39
im confused about this thread. Grim ur not even marked as a terrorist lol.

Do I have to be marked as a suicider or terrorist to not agree with said decision?



Some in your nation say that admins should not be interfering and forcing ppl to play a certain way, but isn't this what your nation does?

Our nation does it no more than some other Nations or people playing this game. We arent the only ones complaining about suicides.


I mean you say that if you find they have no spies, then you bomb them to prove a point? And that's ok? But if someone suicides and i mark them a terrorist to prove a point that's not ok?

I never said it wasnt ok. I was just stating that as Rass and I stated it can be prevented 99.5% of the time by having spies or TDN.
I stated above that I have used destructive spy Ops but You and Tnova allready knew that. But you show me where I used it on someone with spies I can garuntee you that you wont find that anywhere unless you include failing failed intel as destructive.


I'm kinda getting the feeling that only certain people's ideas are correct, but mine are not.

I dont recall saying your Ideas arent correct. As I tell everyone I train at work My way may not be the best way its what works best for me. If you can find a better way I will be more than happy to try it your way.



*edit* just to be clear, i'm not speaking to just you grim.. i'm speaking in general. :-)

No offense taken I am just trying to do my part to help make the game better is all. As I know you and the other Admin have been doin as well.
Rest assured I am not making a personal attack against any Admin either
you guys/gals are doin 1 hell of a job but as Rass stated I would also like to see certain aspects of the game changed before others.

Xavior
11-16-2008, 17:09
I hope no one jumps too quickly to conclusions without having all the facts. That especially includes you, Marine.

If anyone here thinks i have 'malicious intent', they are wrong. If anyone here thinks i 'ruin top states for fun', they are wrong. If anyone here thinks i am a 'suicider', they are dead wrong.

I've been trying to stay low while getting a hold of Mr. P, but since I have not been able to do so all weekend, i will post here.

Personally, I feel as i have been caught in the threads of imperfections of a new system. I do not disagree with the system, and i do not agree with the system. I have never been a fan of 'divine intervention' (not you, Anton), I feel that a self-policing society is best, but we all know that we cannot reliabely count on ourselves for that. I appreciate the work that Mr. P and Tnova does for this game.

Now only a select few know about my circumstances (and that does not include you, Marine), but i'd like to point out a few things. If the only attacks outside of war which are accepted are SA, regular spy op, and military esp, then why make the other 'aggressive' options available at all? Why not just take them away all together? I come back to Marine's statement, that because of this new Patriot Act, states can run with 0 spies if they wish. States can run with 0 jets/agm if they wish. Why? Because if anyone tries to AR or spy op them, the offending state gets deleted! Well you can say that if a war comes along, they are toast. But how many wars occur each set? There should be consequences for not having any spies, just like there always have been. How hard is it to buy 400k spies, not even upgraded? Because I assure you, the casual 'suicider' will not even try to spy op them if there is the slightest chance that they may fail due to the huge random factor.

Now coming back to my situation, I did not just randomly pick a state with 0 spies and blow up a few k buildings. If anyone cares, the targeted state is a friend of mine in RL. We live on the same freaking street, he is new, i've been teaching him. I do not try to justify my actions, but this game has consequences. It always had. I see him with 0 spies, when I always tell him to upgrade spies right after infantry and to spy his targets. Did i destroy more than i should have? Maybe. Do i expect the Admin to know about this? No. But I've been playing for a long time, how many times have you seen me ruin someones state just for the fun of it? Did i go out and kill a random state and AA several other states for a 'grudge'? Am i 'having my grudges'? Marine, you don't know half of what happened, so please stop running your mouth because everyone here knows whos the real 'suicider'. And it sure as hell ain't me.

Now, I have already accepted any punishments which i may have to suffer. I am not angry about this, I appreciate what Mr. P and Tnova do for this game. Now, perhaps the Admin could let me know what exactly the punishments are. The Patriot Act thread doesn't cover the 'suicider' part, only the cheater part.

Oh yeah Marine, I've decided to sit for the rest of the set. And not because you try to get my nation to reject me, but because I wouldn't want to let my nation's name get ruined along with mine. So stop your idle threats, and take a look in the mirror.

-Chris-
11-16-2008, 17:28
Patriot act is bull****, enough said.

MarineRecon
11-16-2008, 17:30
it doesnt matter if hes your friend or not...he was pissed about the attacks and hes in my nation and destructive spy ops are against my policy...if you wanted to teach him better you should have sorted it out with him or contacted me about it...have a suicided in the past? yes i have...did i change these last couple sets to better NW? yes i have...this is just like the bashing on LoR...they may have screwed up in the past but when they try to change people just bring up the past...for being in a nation especially as a co-leader that doesnt support suiciding and then you suicide thats funny...you cant even say u didnt suicide because as Mr. Pres stated: "First, the definition of what a suicide really is. And basically it's simple. Someone who destroys someone else for no reason or logical/stratigical gain." now from what i see out of these attacks there was no reason or stratigical gain for you. yeah he might not have had spies but what gain did you get out of it? he wasnt a high ranked player, i dont even think he was in the top 50. did i ask that grim dont accept you back into the nation? yes thats because we cant punish the nation for your actions so i figured the best and easiest thing to do is just ask you not rejoin the nation

StrikeForce
11-16-2008, 17:58
This game is turning into a drama filled ***** fest.. no wonder no one plays anymore. If you get attacked, you get attacked, suck it up and carry on.

Rassputtin
11-16-2008, 18:24
Rassputtin. tell me please. a good example would have been this set. after EX attacked they jumped to states that were like 15mill inf 5mill jets 6 mill ships. me and James were the only states able to break them. i was the only one who had enough stock (and turns to use it) + units on PM to jump ( i jumped 12mill inf 10mill jets 8mill ships). if we used your idea then my players would have all had to make states which would have been useless in a war. the only way we were able to kill the EX states is for my players to go jet heavy and break them by pure ARs (and then use the money accumilated over the strikes to get AA defence)...so if we had your 60% jets = 40% readiness rules then there would have been no chance for us :unsure: it totally screws the concept of breakers. how is someone supposed to kill a top state in a war if you don't have an equally good player who is also netting? you can't. you need a top stocker whod go heavy on a unit to allow his team mates to kill the target. as nosejam said, it would have to be modified for war. and also...what about people who have like ...1k spies 20k infantry. so do they have 0% readiness :unsure:?

States with 15mil inf, 5m jets, & 6m ships that equals roughly mil str:

Assuming they had no spies to contribute to thier military strength thier %'s are

State A.

Inf = 18.82%
Jets =19.19%
Ships =61.99%

Which means (under my system), that they are at 38.01 % readiness. Which means that you effectively have to defeat 2,280,000 ships to break. I don't see a problem with breaking. "My" readiness system doesn't just affect attackers, defenders too. So as you see your states wouldnt be worthless, he would have suffered for being 62% ships. As he should. Its alot easier to mobilize smaller forces. Take a group of 20,000 soldiers, do you think thier "readiness" or "reaction time" or "deployment time" or whatever you want to call it would be more or less than 200,000. Secondly, after the intial "deployment" which group would be faster to respond to an alternate objective or "redeployment". You'll find that smaller groups are more "ready".

So under the system, you don't NEED breakers. You need states that are equally big or bigger. I mean really why whine about breakers.... if your not big enough your not big enough..... should cuba build nothing but ships so they can "break" the united states? How effective would that be. They simply aren't big or strong enough. If they want to do something they need to get on the phone and call russia or china or someone else who IS BIG ENOUGH!

And yes, with your 20k inf, & 1k spies which is a 23%/77% ratio would be at 23% readiness. To correct the problem you could do any number of things..... like get more than just infantry.... say 3500 spies, 20k inf & 1000 jets would put all units under 50%. Its really not that difficult.

Now if you really, really, really think that you need to go unbalanced because you really, really, really think that you should be able to attack or break or defeat states that are bigger than you, you could go two units like jets & ships at a 50/50% strength, which would keep you under the limit but give you max ships strength to break a state that is bigger........of course doing so would have negative effects on you in war time.....

But I don't really care, there will never be enough of a majority who want the game more realistic, less simplified as far as unit interaction, and less stupid as far as only having to have infantry. So there is really no point in discussing it.

Like Marine said, and I'm sure many others share the sentiment, No one has the time or care to do anything different. They want thier 99% infantry to defeat bombers and ships and if you change it so that thier infantry can't superman jump into thier air and defeat the bombers they will whimper uncontrollably.

So leave it the way it is, only add two ground attacks, one where infantry can lower readiness and one where infantry can destroy land..... then you can just delete the other units and be done with it.

Rassputtin
11-16-2008, 18:53
I mean you say that if you find they have no spies, then you bomb them to prove a point? And that's ok? But if someone suicides and i mark them a terrorist to prove a point that's not ok?

I find it funny that people get suicided and complain like crazy, but then have no problem going off and bombing other states to make a point.



I suppose it depends on the point you want to make.

Bombing a state with no spies is making the point - makes the point

get spies

Deleting a state for bombing someone with no spies - makes the point

Don't ever worry about having spies


............................

Raven
11-16-2008, 20:03
This game is turning into a drama filled ***** fest.. no wonder no one plays anymore. If you get attacked, you get attacked, suck it up and carry on.

Amen to that.

Mr President
11-16-2008, 20:17
I'm not going to go back and forth on this. I know where you stand, and the suiciding issue is still important to me. Just cause i enacted the Patriot act doesn't mean i have forgotten about it.. basically all that did was by some time.

The Retaliation and the Sanctions is something that has been on my list for a while now. I have a list with many idea's, and though some are broken down by importance, most are in order by time and what i can get done in a small time frame.

The suicide stuff will take a long time. It's not something that we can just throw together. It will be a long work in progress. But mainly i just don't have the time to really get in it right now. I'm thinking after the first of the year after we get passes holidays and busy work schedules.

And rass your idea is a good one and i always appreciate new ideas, but it doesn't mean it's dead perfect. It's something we would have to have other pick apart and suggest new ideas till we come up with the perfect solution.
if you choose not to wait around for all this, then that is your choice. I also don't expect you to like all the ideas i implement. But let me be clear when i say, every new thing that goes in, can easily come back out. These are all trials to see how they do. if they flop, then we remove them.

I do hope you continue on with making suggestions. And i also hope that just cause i don't jump right on them and implement them, doesn't mean they are not good ideas or that i don't like them.

I will get to all the ideas in time.. That is a promise! :dblthumbup:

Xavior
11-16-2008, 20:23
I'm not going to go back and forth on this. I know where you stand, and the suiciding issue is still important to me. Just cause i enacted the Patriot act doesn't mean i have forgotten about it.. basically all that did was by some time.

The Retaliation and the Sanctions is something that has been on my list for a while now. I have a list with many idea's, and though some are broken down by importance, most are in order by time and what i can get done in a small time frame.

The suicide stuff will take a long time. It's not something that we can just throw together. It will be a long work in progress. But mainly i just don't have the time to really get in it right now. I'm thinking after the first of the year after we get passes holidays and busy work schedules.

And rass your idea is a good one and i always appreciate new ideas, but it doesn't mean it's dead perfect. It's something we would have to have other pick apart and suggest new ideas till we come up with the perfect solution.
if you choose not to wait around for all this, then that is your choice. I also don't expect you to like all the ideas i implement. But let me be clear when i say, every new thing that goes in, can easily come back out. These are all trials to see how they do. if they flop, then we remove them.

I do hope you continue on with making suggestions. And i also hope that just cause i don't jump right on them and implement them, doesn't mean they are not good ideas or that i don't like them.

I will get to all the ideas in time.. That is a promise! :dblthumbup:




Now, I have already accepted any punishments which i may have to suffer. I am not angry about this, I appreciate what Mr. P and Tnova do for this game. Now, perhaps the Admin could let me know what exactly the punishments are. The Patriot Act thread doesn't cover the 'suicider' part, only the cheater part.

Erm...

Mr President
11-16-2008, 20:31
I hope no one jumps too quickly to conclusions without having all the facts. That especially includes you, Marine.

If anyone here thinks i have 'malicious intent', they are wrong. If anyone here thinks i 'ruin top states for fun', they are wrong. If anyone here thinks i am a 'suicider', they are dead wrong.

I've been trying to stay low while getting a hold of Mr. P, but since I have not been able to do so all weekend, i will post here.

Personally, I feel as i have been caught in the threads of imperfections of a new system. I do not disagree with the system, and i do not agree with the system. I have never been a fan of 'divine intervention' (not you, Anton), I feel that a self-policing society is best, but we all know that we cannot reliabely count on ourselves for that. I appreciate the work that Mr. P and Tnova does for this game.

Now only a select few know about my circumstances (and that does not include you, Marine), but i'd like to point out a few things. If the only attacks outside of war which are accepted are SA, regular spy op, and military esp, then why make the other 'aggressive' options available at all? Why not just take them away all together? I come back to Marine's statement, that because of this new Patriot Act, states can run with 0 spies if they wish. States can run with 0 jets/agm if they wish. Why? Because if anyone tries to AR or spy op them, the offending state gets deleted! Well you can say that if a war comes along, they are toast. But how many wars occur each set? There should be consequences for not having any spies, just like there always have been. How hard is it to buy 400k spies, not even upgraded? Because I assure you, the casual 'suicider' will not even try to spy op them if there is the slightest chance that they may fail due to the huge random factor.

Now coming back to my situation, I did not just randomly pick a state with 0 spies and blow up a few k buildings. If anyone cares, the targeted state is a friend of mine in RL. We live on the same freaking street, he is new, i've been teaching him. I do not try to justify my actions, but this game has consequences. It always had. I see him with 0 spies, when I always tell him to upgrade spies right after infantry and to spy his targets. Did i destroy more than i should have? Maybe. Do i expect the Admin to know about this? No. But I've been playing for a long time, how many times have you seen me ruin someones state just for the fun of it? Did i go out and kill a random state and AA several other states for a 'grudge'? Am i 'having my grudges'? Marine, you don't know half of what happened, so please stop running your mouth because everyone here knows whos the real 'suicider'. And it sure as hell ain't me.

Now, I have already accepted any punishments which i may have to suffer. I am not angry about this, I appreciate what Mr. P and Tnova do for this game. Now, perhaps the Admin could let me know what exactly the punishments are. The Patriot Act thread doesn't cover the 'suicider' part, only the cheater part.

Oh yeah Marine, I've decided to sit for the rest of the set. And not because you try to get my nation to reject me, but because I wouldn't want to let my nation's name get ruined along with mine. So stop your idle threats, and take a look in the mirror.

Xavior,

I am sorry i have been so hard to catch up with. You caught me the other day, but i was right in the middle of specking out a house design that i needed to have back to the architect by the next morning.. And when i finished, you were not on.. :-(

anyway, Yes i would say that you got caught in a loop hole of the new system. we did not speak with you first before we made our decision. And we should have. Cause if we knew your side of the story, then it may have changed the outcome. From now on, we will be sure to speak with ALL the people involved.

As i stated in the Patriot Act thread, this was only a start and we would build from it. And that i'm sure there will be loop holes and we will fill them as we find them.

I also stated in this thread that a few bombings to help someone realize they need spies is not going to get you marked a terrorist. We don't want to pick out ppl who do like 5 bombings on a state. This act was set up for the ones who destroy someone's state for no reason. So a few bombing here and there will NOT get you in trouble..

When we looked at your attacks, there was WAY more then a few. So many that it looked like someone suiciding. Again, we should have spoken with you to get the whole story.

Punishments for terrorist actions are as follows:

The original suiciding state is declared a suicider and carries a pink background behind it for the remainder of the set.

If the declared suicider makes a new state, they are able to play, but they carry a pink background for the remainder of the set.

If a member suicides continually or many times in a short period, then they will carry the pink background for up to 3 consecutive sets.

The whole point of this act is to point out who is suiciding. People didn't mind doing it when they were not known, but now seeing everyone will know they suicide, it helps prevent them some.

And just so everyone knows, Xavior is far from a suicider. He has not and does not do these types of acts. That is why i was very shocked when i saw it was him. But now that i know his side of the story, it makes sense.

Mr President
11-16-2008, 20:32
Now, I have already accepted any punishments which i may have to suffer. I am not angry about this, I appreciate what Mr. P and Tnova do for this game. Now, perhaps the Admin could let me know what exactly the punishments are. The Patriot Act thread doesn't cover the 'suicider' part, only the cheater part.

Erm...

i was typing it while you were typing this.. geez give me a chance.. I spent the whole day in the woods chasing bamby around trying to kill his parents :) so i'm a little slow right now.

MarineRecon
11-16-2008, 20:38
i still feel its a suicide...if i were to do it i would have been labled because i have done suiciding in the past...just because sumbody hasnt done it b4 doesnt mean its not a suicide and kinda favor them with that...33 hits compared to 5 is a suicide idc who u r...it messed up sumbody's set and got them pissed off so how does it make sense???

SmarT
11-16-2008, 20:48
i agree with marine on this one, actions speak louder then words

Mr President
11-16-2008, 20:56
i still feel its a suicide...if i were to do it i would have been labled because i have done suiciding in the past...just because sumbody hasnt done it b4 doesnt mean its not a suicide and kinda favor them with that...33 hits compared to 5 is a suicide idc who u r...it messed up sumbody's set and got them pissed off so how does it make sense???


All i said was he hasn't done it in the past cause i didn't want people thinking he was a "normal" suicider..

He was marked a terrorist. The problem is, you can't see it cause his state was disabled and they don't show up on the scores charts. If his state was marked then killed, then you would see it.. And he hasn't made another state, so that is why you don't see another pink name.

MarineRecon
11-16-2008, 21:00
it was cleary set to ruin sumbody's set...if they dont want to have spies thats their choice but if their warred and killed cuz of it or cant get intels then that sux for them...but destroying buildings with 33 hits to prove a point isnt right...and what happened to this: "Open discussions about who should get there state back bla bla bla will be ignored if not deleted."

Xavior
11-16-2008, 21:39
@ Mr. P:

Thanks for clearing things up, much appreciated. Apparently I missed you on MSN again, i'll catch you sometime during the weekdays then.

My nation has been very supportive and have convinced me to make another state. Maybe I can atleast help out for tax purposes, or atleast beat Bled in networth. The pink label doesn't work, my new state doesn't have it. I thought it was linked with ip address? And isn't it linked with the forum account? I remember Ali and Skycat were pink on the forums.

DreamEvil
11-16-2008, 21:50
idk imma just go out on a limb and say any way u can lock war using attacks cause i mean any one can use them maybe you shouldnt have them until war is declared between X amount of nations then those players get the war attacks i mean if you hate it that much other wise nothing u can really do =\

StrikeForce
11-16-2008, 22:16
Tell your states to get some spies and shut up.. problem solved.

Divine Intervention
11-17-2008, 04:17
i have no idea how someone can play with 0 spies. if these 0 spy people are the same ones who grab indiscriminently everyone on the score list without looking at EV then they deserve to get their buildings bombed or w/e. ruining my grabs :cursing:

MAGGIO
11-17-2008, 10:16
I like Xav like most of us do, but by definition that was a clear suicide.

If I did that i would expect my name to be pink too.

Mr President
11-17-2008, 10:47
idk imma just go out on a limb and say any way u can lock war using attacks cause i mean any one can use them maybe you shouldnt have them until war is declared between X amount of nations then those players get the war attacks i mean if you hate it that much other wise nothing u can really do =\

before we couldnt do this cause ppl didnt like having to declare war to retal. but now that we will have the retal option locking the war attacks till war or retal is declared should def happen. it was part of the whole retal plan.

darren_yip
11-17-2008, 13:27
"Now coming back to my situation, I did not just randomly pick a state with 0 spies and blow up a few k buildings. If anyone cares, the targeted state is a friend of mine in RL. We live on the same freaking street, he is new, i've been teaching him."
Xavior

o.O is that how you treat a RL friend??

Max Logan
11-17-2008, 14:29
"Now coming back to my situation, I did not just randomly pick a state with 0 spies and blow up a few k buildings. If anyone cares, the targeted state is a friend of mine in RL. We live on the same freaking street, he is new, i've been teaching him."
Xavior

o.O is that how you treat a RL friend??

:o

Xav I apologise for all I have said to you! Don`t kill me! :(

Xavior
11-17-2008, 15:28
"Now coming back to my situation, I did not just randomly pick a state with 0 spies and blow up a few k buildings. If anyone cares, the targeted state is a friend of mine in RL. We live on the same freaking street, he is new, i've been teaching him."
Xavior

o.O is that how you treat a RL friend??

Somewhere along the line, you just have to realize that this is an online game. I didn't vomit on his mother.

@ Maggio:
I'm coming after you next set!!!

@ Max:
You are next after Maggio!!!

:)

Max Logan
11-17-2008, 15:49
Pffft! Why is he 1st? Like, what the hell?

MarineRecon
11-17-2008, 17:10
@ Mr. P:

Thanks for clearing things up, much appreciated. Apparently I missed you on MSN again, i'll catch you sometime during the weekdays then.

My nation has been very supportive and have convinced me to make another state. Maybe I can atleast help out for tax purposes, or atleast beat Bled in networth. The pink label doesn't work, my new state doesn't have it. I thought it was linked with ip address? And isn't it linked with the forum account? I remember Ali and Skycat were pink on the forums.

wonders where the pink name is still :glare:

Minimus
11-17-2008, 17:29
Can I be on this list for terrorizing the forums?

DevilDog
11-17-2008, 18:10
blah blah blah!!!!

MAGGIO
11-17-2008, 18:33
@ Maggio:
I'm coming after you next set!!!

@ Max:
You are next after Maggio!!!

:)

i would rather you not. :crying:
i do have spies I promise:wub:
im going to tell my dogma on you:P

Max Logan
11-17-2008, 19:27
Some jokes never grow old! :thumbup:

Xavior
11-17-2008, 20:31
Pffft! Why is he 1st? Like, what the hell?

Because we are old buddies, i'll give you a headstart ;)


i would rather you not. :crying:
i do have spies I promise:wub:
im going to tell my dogma on you:P

Dogma?
/runs

MAGGIO
11-17-2008, 22:42
My official stance has changed due to good points made through discussion.

I do not defend Xav's actions, but with inreason the defending state should be held accountable for not having any spies, and if no attacks failed then Xav should not be punished.

Players should not be privy to server logs and if the defender cannot identify the attacker than the attacker should not be served up on a silver platter IMO.

::LD::GrimReapr
11-18-2008, 04:45
:o

Xav I apologise for all I have said to you! Don`t kill me! :(

We would never kill you max. Tho before you joined GRIM I wanted the bounty on your head now I am waiting for you to come back home to GRIM.

Max Logan
11-18-2008, 10:02
My official stance has changed due to good points made through discussion.

I do not defend Xav's actions, but with inreason the defending state should be held accountable for not having any spies, and if no attacks failed then Xav should not be punished.

Players should not be privy to server logs and if the defender cannot identify the attacker than the attacker should not be served up on a silver platter IMO.

That`s the point! It could be 100 other states who hit you. And Patriot Act was gameplay thing, why should admin powers come into gameplay?

Missionary
11-18-2008, 11:26
wether he was discovered or not he still did the attacks. and if he was found out due to admin logs then it should not matter. the fact is he did the attacks and therefore should get punished. the whole point of this was to prevent suiciders, now one gets caught that people like youve all shyed away from dishing out punishment.

moral of the story - "if people like you, you can suicide"

MarineRecon
11-18-2008, 11:30
well put vinnie...couldnt have said it any better lol thats y im getting out of this game now b4 its to late...devil's lucky he left when he did

::LD::GrimReapr
11-18-2008, 12:18
I disagree Vinnie Suicides cant be stopped regardless of what you do.
Destructive spy ops can be with as I said before you guessed it SPIES or as I also said before TDN.

BTW I Didnt start this thread in Defense of Xavior I started this thread to make my feelings known about how I felt about destructive spy-ops
If I am dumb enough or brave enough not to carry spies then I fully deserve to have my **** blown up or money destroyed because i could have easily prevented it.
Now if its 3 days in when your upgrading then by all means it isnt justifiable.when you got over half the set allready done and you dont have spies you got whats coming to you in my opinion. Because as I said above its is easily preventable you dont need 2 or 3 million spies 25k or so will atleast let you know who is doing it there by making it an act of suicide cause it will start a war if you got none you dont have a clue who done it and your SH1T OUT OF LUCK.

As a Co leader of my nation I take it upon myself to check the states in my nation for units and what not.
I watch the new players in the nation to help them out or give them advice to make sure they arent running like a mixed strat for what little food will be provided by having a few extra farms instead of the extra units they would produce.
I have on more than 1 occasion warned both of the new people that i got to play this game what happens and even demonstrated to them on someone what happens when you dont have spies.They didnt like the idea of having their **** dissappear whether it be buildings or money so guess what they have spies so that **** dont happen.

MAGGIO
11-18-2008, 13:18
wether he was discovered or not he still did the attacks. and if he was found out due to admin logs then it should not matter. the fact is he did the attacks and therefore should get punished. the whole point of this was to prevent suiciders, now one gets caught that people like youve all shyed away from dishing out punishment.

moral of the story - "if people like you, you can suicide"

were is the accountability of the victom? Why should we encourage people not to carry spies?

that is why i say IMO. if there are no failed spy ops because the victom has no spies at all then tuff ****. There has to be some sort of accountability on the victoms end or it will create a reverse loophole were as states are encouraged not to carry spies at all because they will get a Bail Out from the adminstration.

Also if there are no fails it should not be a situation were the admin logs should be the only evidence of the attack. Players have never been prevy to them before why should it be that way now.

MarineRecon
11-18-2008, 13:22
were not sayin they shouldnt carry spies...if they wanna get intels or not get ****ed up in a war then get them but having them just to prevent sumbody from "suiciding" u shouldnt be needed

Divine Intervention
11-18-2008, 13:46
it wont prevent suiciding but it will atleast tell you who did it. which is what you need to know/find out yourself...not going to admin for it. and i think you said somewhere that people are reacting based on who was first victim. well let me just say that ive always been against spy attacks counting towards patriot act and further more, Xavior and I aren't exactly friends. i think he hates me :(

MarineRecon
11-18-2008, 13:51
well this game is basically on who noes who so their gonna back certain ****...the game got real lame since svenne let it go so im outtie after this set...enjoy and have fun guys

Mr President
11-18-2008, 15:15
well this game is basically on who noes who so their gonna back certain ****...the game got real lame since svenne let it go so im outtie after this set...enjoy and have fun guys

ok.so for a few sets you go off and suicide other states for fun. Then you decide to start playing fair. Then a suicide happens you you act like nothing was done. We have done everything we said we would do. Xavior lost his first state and his 2nd was marked as soon as i found out he made one. what more do you want? I really don't know what your *****ing about. Back when you were off blowing up buildings for fun the rest of us were trying to come up with ways to help prevent it. Don't give me this crap that the game has went downhill since svenne let it go. Maybe it's you who has gone downhill.

Personally i think things have been going very well with the game. We are trying diff things. If they don't work then we take them and try again. But hey thanks for taking 3 weeks out of your suicides to "claim" you want to help the game but yet when it gets tough you make posts like these.

There is no favoritism from the admins. You break the rules you pay the price...no matter who u are.. What others say in here are not the rules . It is there opinions.

xavior got the same punishment as the last suicider... so what more do you want???

Xavior
11-18-2008, 15:43
were not sayin they shouldnt carry spies...if they wanna get intels or not get ****ed up in a war then get them but having them just to prevent sumbody from "suiciding" u shouldnt be needed

Actually, this is what you said earlier in this thread:


u shouldnt have to have spies if u dont want to...

but y should sumbody have to have spies to prevent being suicided...

So going along with your logic, we should just take spies out of the game?

Marine, I have a feeling that the only reason why you want me to have a tougher punishment than any other suicider is because of our confrontations in the past. Confrontations which YOU started. There are rules regarding consequences of suicides. I have received the punishments. My state is deleted, i'm pink. Thats what the punishments are for ALL suiciders. Do you want me banned or something?

You assured us that your 'grudges' in the past were a one set thing only. Please stick to your word (although evidence from the past suggests this is highly unlikely).

Xavior
11-18-2008, 15:58
and further more, Xavior and I aren't exactly friends. i think he hates me :(

;)

MAGGIO
11-18-2008, 16:02
I think carrying a few 100K spies is a way that the community can take accountability against suicides. If the members cant do their part then why would the administration have to do anything at all. Its give take, not give give give.

Marine......LEAVE! We got the memo, you are unhappy, you are leaving, so be it. Please no cutting in line. Everyone will get a chance to beg marine to stay there is 9 days left we all have plenty of time.

Divine Intervention
11-18-2008, 16:04
;)

its a one way relationship :crying:

diablonate18
11-18-2008, 17:09
I disagree Vinnie Suicides cant be stopped regardless of what you do.
Destructive spy ops can be with as I said before you guessed it SPIES or as I also said before TDN.

BTW I Didnt start this thread in Defense of Xavior I started this thread to make my feelings known about how I felt about destructive spy-ops
If I am dumb enough or brave enough not to carry spies then I fully deserve to have my **** blown up or money destroyed because i could have easily prevented it.
Now if its 3 days in when your upgrading then by all means it isnt justifiable.when you got over half the set allready done and you dont have spies you got whats coming to you in my opinion. Because as I said above its is easily preventable you dont need 2 or 3 million spies 25k or so will atleast let you know who is doing it there by making it an act of suicide cause it will start a war if you got none you dont have a clue who done it and your SH1T OUT OF LUCK.

As a Co leader of my nation I take it upon myself to check the states in my nation for units and what not.
I watch the new players in the nation to help them out or give them advice to make sure they arent running like a mixed strat for what little food will be provided by having a few extra farms instead of the extra units they would produce.
I have on more than 1 occasion warned both of the new people that i got to play this game what happens and even demonstrated to them on someone what happens when you dont have spies.They didnt like the idea of having their **** dissappear whether it be buildings or money so guess what they have spies so that **** dont happen.


Yes you have warned me and I do appreciate it. Why wouldn't anybody carry any spies is what I want to know? By the rules set in place I guess Xavior's punishment is fair. What I don't understand is what all the crying is about. Shut up! Play the game! And if somebody has a problem with what somebody did, LET THERE NATION DEAL WITH IT HOW THET FEEL FIT! I personally think GRIM should declare war on Marine's a** for whinning like a little girl.:P
-Blitzkreg

Missionary
11-18-2008, 17:36
were is the accountability of the victom? Why should we encourage people not to carry spies?

that is why i say IMO. if there are no failed spy ops because the victom has no spies at all then tuff ****. There has to be some sort of accountability on the victoms end or it will create a reverse loophole were as states are encouraged not to carry spies at all because they will get a Bail Out from the adminstration.

Also if there are no fails it should not be a situation were the admin logs should be the only evidence of the attack. Players have never been prevy to them before why should it be that way now.

we shouldnt encourage people not to have spies. it exactly the same as people only having infantry. the only difference is the AAs that these states recieve because of it are seen on the GE. why not just say the same for that...."tuff ****".you cant say just because spy ops are not on the GE that if you fail then your ok. otherwise it means people who suicide and are successful have done nothing wrong that needs punishing.

MAGGIO
11-18-2008, 17:36
fancy that...someone who wants to play the game how it is supposed to be played. you got beef? handle it on the battle field. Rep for you Blitz

MAGGIO
11-18-2008, 17:41
we shouldnt encourage people not to have spies. it exactly the same as people only having infantry. the only difference is the AAs that these states recieve because of it are seen on the GE. why not just say the same for that...."tuff ****".you cant say just because spy ops are not on the GE that if you fail then your ok. otherwise it means people who suicide and are successful have done nothing wrong that needs punishing.

my specific arguement is that the server logs should not assist states. as a exception to the patriot act I am proposing that if no failed ops occur than the attacker should not be punished.

I think that people should be accountable for having some what of a balanced state in order to help the efforts of the patriot act. Be it Spies or Ships or what ever.

Specifically with the spy ops. the only way to know who hit yoru state if there are no fails is the server logs. I dont think those should be used as we should not know what is on them.

I also think this exception to the patriot act is a good faith sign that the members dont have a free pass as always being the victom. Therefore a some what balanced state is encouraged. In a small way I am sticking up for the suiciders but in a more powerful way, I am proposing that the community do their part in prevention. Hoping that they dont expect to be Bailed Out due to a lack of effort on their part.

Mr President
11-18-2008, 18:07
In original Patriot Act thread i said not to cry wolf cause it will actually hurt you in the long run seeing we will be less likely to check it out.

but again i would like to clarify something.. Admins are not here to control the style of game play. Nor are we here to interrupt the balance of play. The Patriot Act was set up to help slow down the suiciding. It is not going to be a 100% fix, nor a perm fix.

We are not out looking for states that have done a few bad attacks here and there. If someone does 5 bombings on another state, nothing is going to happen. So those of you who are concerned and like to "remind" people that they should have spies, can still do so.. most of you have said you only do a few just as a reminder..

What we look for are the major ones. Where someone dumped a ton of turns just for fun. And you all need to understand that there really is only 1 or 2 people who normally suicide. As long as the rest of you keep playing the way you always have, this act should mean nothing to you..

Tnova and myself are very active. Both of us scan info each night. We have a daily routine. And we know who are the normal suiciders..

Any information that we have access to is NEVER shared with anyone. people PM me all the time asking for a name, and i will not give it.

I am making a new post in the Admin thread that will layout the whole Patriot Act and how we do things.

And last but not least, let's not forget that this act is rarely used. It's not like each set we are setting out to hunt you down and put you on the list. All it was meant to do is let the normal suiciders know that now they need to chill out and stop ruining the game for everyone else.. Cause now there are consequences to there ruthless regard for anyone else.

SmarT
11-18-2008, 18:08
here is the prob, u guys find xaviors actions ok. its not, he didnt do it for rank or nw gain. thats the bottom line, he did it because he could. so whats the difference if i decided that the top states should be hit, and i do it? there isnt any. so if you all want to take that stance, you shouldnt even try to regulate suiciding but let the nations deal with it.

Mr President
11-18-2008, 18:29
here is the prob, u guys find xaviors actions ok. its not, he didnt do it for rank or nw gain. thats the bottom line, he did it because he could. so whats the difference if i decided that the top states should be hit, and i do it? there isnt any. so if you all want to take that stance, you shouldnt even try to regulate suiciding but let the nations deal with it.

Is this to me? Cause i don't agree with Xavior's actions at all.. he didn't do just a couple, he did a massive amount.

The Problem is nations DON'T deal with it, or don't want to deal with it shall i say. it became such a problem that people were leaving.. It's the same problem when the game was World-of-War.. If you go back and ask an old vet from way back when why he left, his reply will be cause they were tired of the suiciders. Even Svenne himself in his HOF induction interview stated the suiciders were the biggest thing he didn't like about the game.

I sat back for set after set and got HUNDREDS of PM's asking me to do something about it.. So i did. All we are doing is giving consequences to the "few" who have always done it and was able to hide.. Now that everyone will know who they are, they are less tempted to do it.

Mr President
11-18-2008, 18:31
Though some of you may think these posts are people whining, it's really not. This is what it's all about. Everyone giving opinions and debating things out. This is also where the ones who are truly committed stand out.. Cause they will still be here when the dust settles...... even if they didn't get there way.

Bravo to those people!!

diablonate18
11-18-2008, 18:54
Though some of you may think these posts are people whining, it's really not. This is what it's all about. Everyone giving opinions and debating things out. This is also where the ones who are truly committed stand out.. Cause they will still be here when the dust settles...... even if they didn't get there way.

Bravo to those people!!

Well there Mr P. to many people that play this game whine and instead of dealing with whatever issue is bothering them they run to you to fix there problems. You and many others will also find out, when the dust settles, I will always be there. I enjoy playing this game alot. In all honesty I don't believe your so called "suiciding" should be outlawed. I think that if a state desires to be a terrorist state, then that state should ban together with other states that share there own ambitions. I think that labeling a state "PINK" by administrators should not be done and that nations should have that option as to label whoever they want "PINK". Just because 50 people think somebody is a terrorist doesn't mean that 50 others think the same way. Now once again these are only my opinions and my opinion of a game being run as a democracy sucks. Also just my opinion and I will continue to play this game for a very long time.
Thank You,
-Blitzkreg

Mr President
11-18-2008, 19:00
lol thanks for the post diablonate18..

The suiciding issue is very complicated and very hard to pick a side.. the main problem is it just got so far out of control.. I believe in wars and all the reasons for warring. but i do also feel there is a place for terrorist states too.. Cause after all, in the real world not everyone plays nice. But we are working on trying to find the right solution. And like most things, you need to make a few wrong choices to get to the right one. (and no i'm not saying the Patriot Act is a wrong decision lol )

Also, i wouldn't say that this forum/game is being run like a democracy. I just enjoy getting other peoples opinions on things.. Good or bad.. with me or against me.

If this was a democracy then everyone's opinions would carry some weight.. Right now it's like a fart in the wind.. It's clears out in time and doesn't really have a large impact... lmoa.. jk!

diablonate18
11-18-2008, 19:17
lol thanks for the post diablonate18..

The suiciding issue is very complicated and very hard to pick a side.. the main problem is it just got so far out of control.. I believe in wars and all the reasons for warring. but i do also feel there is a place for terrorist states too.. Cause after all, in the real world not everyone plays nice. But we are working on trying to find the right solution. And like most things, you need to make a few wrong choices to get to the right one. (and no i'm not saying the Patriot Act is a wrong decision lol )

Also, i wouldn't say that this forum/game is being run like a democracy. I just enjoy getting other peoples opinions on things.. Good or bad.. with me or against me.

If this was a democracy then everyone's opinions would carry some weight.. Right now it's like a fart in the wind.. It's clears out in time and doesn't really have a large impact... lmoa.. jk!


Well thank you for listening to me. If you guys ever get a terrorist nation or more terroristic options I will be the first to join up. It pains me to play a good guy lol

Missionary
11-19-2008, 05:32
my specific arguement is that the server logs should not assist states. as a exception to the patriot act I am proposing that if no failed ops occur than the attacker should not be punished.

I think that people should be accountable for having some what of a balanced state in order to help the efforts of the patriot act. Be it Spies or Ships or what ever.

Specifically with the spy ops. the only way to know who hit yoru state if there are no fails is the server logs. I dont think those should be used as we should not know what is on them.

I also think this exception to the patriot act is a good faith sign that the members dont have a free pass as always being the victom. Therefore a some what balanced state is encouraged. In a small way I am sticking up for the suiciders but in a more powerful way, I am proposing that the community do their part in prevention. Hoping that they dont expect to be Bailed Out due to a lack of effort on their part.

so why not say that the person who gets suicided doesnt recieve any sort of compersation for the attack but the suicider is also punished. i still think the state should only be highlighted and not killed. this will still leave the emphasis on players to resolve the issue whilst limiting admin interference ingame.

Mr President
11-19-2008, 15:45
so why not say that the person who gets suicided doesnt recieve any sort of compersation for the attack but the suicider is also punished. i still think the state should only be highlighted and not killed. this will still leave the emphasis on players to resolve the issue whilst limiting admin interference ingame.


Not a bad idea.. what we could do is, make the 1st offense getting your name listed on the terrorist listing along with the pink highlight, but not deleted. Then the nations or states involved can handle it..

Then if there are more then 1 offense, we follow the new rules..

Lets see what others think about this idea before we go any further.

MAGGIO
11-19-2008, 16:16
that sounds great vinnie. Let the community inflict the punishment once the state is labled pink. and on the second offense, its just an auto delete. either way we know who did it.

I love the forum idea. they have to carry the pink were ever they go.

::LD::GrimReapr
11-20-2008, 04:56
If you mean when he fails an aggressive spy for those punishments great but if he dosnt fail one then no dice on labeling or coloring should be done.