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Mr President
11-18-2008, 18:24
Suiciding - "Someone who destroys someone else for no reason or logical/strategical gain".

Nobody wants to take the thrill of warring out of this game. What we want is to take or limit the best we can, suiciding.

If you go to war due to revenge, you are not a suicider. If you war to advance in the scores, you are not a suicider. If you war as a pre-emptive action to protect your nation you are not a suicider. This is mainly a war game and people love to war. All we are doing is trying to help keep the ones who like to go off and destroy a state or a nation cause they find it funny and then hide there identity.

Proving a suicide is not easy. There must be clear evidence.

If you feel your state has been suicided on, you MUST fill out a report by clicking on the "Report Cheater" tab in the game and include as much info and evidence as you can. PM's or posts in the forums will be ignored.

We will then take all the info and look into the matter. If we feel an investigation needs to start, we will open one. As soon as one is opened, the suspected state receives
an automatic message letting him/her know that an investigation has been opened and for what reason. The suspected state then has the right to reply with his/her side of
the story. If after 24hrs there is no response, the admins assume the suspected state has no comment and we will continue with the investigation with just the evidence
we have on hand. If the Evidence we have is overwhelming, we will not even request a response. But suspected state ALWAYS has a right to have a say in the matter.


During an investigation the admins must BOTH agree that it is in fact a suicide for anything to happen. If either one does NOT agree, then the case is dropped and nothing happens.

If a suicide happens and nothing is reported, the we will NOT open an investigation ourselves. And only the member/state who was suicided on can make a report to open an investigation.

Each matter is handled per case. We do not make one overall rule as each matter has different circumstances. Suicides are not open for public debate. You all are free to discuss it, but Admins will not give out any details or explanations on the final ruling..

Roll back are an included option in the Patriot Act, and WILL BE used accordningly. Admins reserve the right to roll back any state at anytime after a suicide has taken place.

If you are found guilty of suiciding, some or all of the following measures can be taken against you:

1st Offense
Guaranteed to happen:

1. - Highlighted Pink name on original state and all states created the next two sets played.
2. - Added to the known terrorist list to release state/forum name to public.
3. - Loss of orgininal suiciding state.

Other options depending on the extent of attack:

1. - Rollback on the state that was attacked.
2. - Banned Account on original suiciding state.

2nd Offense
Guaranteed to happen:

1. - Highlighted Pink name on original state and all states created for six sets played.
2. - Added to the known terrorist list to release state/forum name to public for six sets played.
3. - Pink name in the forums for six sets played.
4. - Loss of orgininal suiciding state.

Other options depending on the extent of attack:

1. - Rollback on the state that was attacked.
2. - Banned Account on original suiciding state.

3rd Offense
Guaranteed to happen:

1. - Highlighted Pink name on original state and all states created.
2. - Added to the known terrorist list to release state/forum name to public rest of your playing days.
3. - Pink name in the forums for rest of your playing days.
4. - Rollback on the state that was attacked.
5. - Loss of Original suiciding state

Other options depending on the extent of attack:

1. - Banned from Game entirely


The Administrator of the game reserve the right to change these rules at any time without any prior notice. They will rule on a case by case status using all the evidence they have and pass down a fair and balanced ruling.

Nation-Wars is dedicated to the privacy of all members and will never release any vital or private information (state name/forum name) to any other member in the community. BUT, if you suicide, you give us the right to release this info.

Crimson Shadow
11-18-2008, 19:16
If you feel your state has been suicided on, you MUST make a report in the cheater section of the forums and include as much info and evidence as you can. PM's or posts in any other section on the forums will be ignored.

Might want to bold this so people don't complain about not noticing it.

To me, the offenses don't really seem to increase in severity. Basically its the exact same punishment every time. Pink name for 1-2 sets isn't really that big of a deterrent. And the guaranteed rollback for the 3rd offense I am not a fan of.

Why not include something like 2nd offense -- unable to use credit system in forums (arcade, betting, casino, etc.)

Xavior
11-19-2008, 20:15
Just to be clear, if I bomb someone 33 times with spies and they don't catch me, i'll still be deleted and named a 'known terrorist'?

MAGGIO
11-19-2008, 20:58
Im guessing that is were the case by case comes in. IDK, it ws my presumption that part was still out for the jury meaning the spy ops with no chance of fails, but Im not sure.

Mr President
11-19-2008, 21:09
Just to be clear, if I bomb someone 33 times with spies and they don't catch me, i'll still be deleted and named a 'known terrorist'?

At the moment yes you would be deleted.

there has been a call for change in the following areas:

-Spy ops should not be counted if there were no fails.

- 1st offense there would be no deletion, just a pink name.

If people want these changes they need to get busy promoting them and getting others involved.. I'm open for change on the PA..

Divine Intervention
11-19-2008, 21:13
if you can't tell who did it you shouldnt be blamed/punished imo.

Mr President
11-19-2008, 21:20
I would like to be clear on something.. I have no clue how to balance the bad suiciding out of the game, but the good terrorist acts in. So that is why i set a foundation (the PW) and said we can work off that.

So your saying that if someone blows up almost all of someone's buildings and they didn't fail one attack, they should not be punished?

So what happens if they do 100 attacks, 99 they succeed but they fail one simple attack.. Should they be listed?

I kinda like the idea of not getting caught and not being listed.. It allows the terrorist movement in the game.. Which honestly i feel there needs to be a terrorist part of the game. If we run around and mark anyone who makes an illegal attack, it kinda makes things boring.. Which is why i said we would allow a few bombings.. but i guess i can't really say that cause everyone wants a number lol..

anyone elses thoughts?

Xavior
11-19-2008, 21:25
It shouldn't matter how many bombings are done. They have 0 spies, they pay for it.

Mr President
11-19-2008, 21:27
It shouldn't matter how many bombings are done. They have 0 spies, they pay for it.

So should this be true for Inf and tanks and jets and bombers and ships?

why does spies stand out? who says people should pay for not having a certain unit?

So next set i make a nation and decide to make people pay for not having bombers.. Is this fair for me to do? If they have no bombers and i bomb them and don't fail one attack am i a suicider?

Are we really going to get to the point of making it a rule of what certain types of units people need to have? Cause blowing someones buildings up for not having spies is kinda like making it a law..

::LD::GrimReapr
11-19-2008, 21:31
if you can't tell who did it you shouldnt be blamed/punished imo.

I cant believe im saying this but I agree because as it has been stated several time you dont need to have 2 or 3 million spies to stop or know who did it. Its not suicide if you dont get caught because there is no chance of you dying.Now I know most of you are gonna say thats supporting suicide> No it isnt because again if you dont get caught it isnt suicide cause you will not die. If I could AA someone who had nothing but INafntry to grab them cause there infantry couldnt see my state insignia on the saide of the ships miles of shore YOU CAN BET YOUR BOTTOM DOLLAR I WOULD BE AA'ING MY HINEY OFF ALL DAY LONG for that strategical advantage because as some of us stated before lets be realistic aint no way 125 million infantry are gonna shoot down my 3 million bombers flying overhead at 30000 feet dropping bombs on their head. Having spies gives you that chance at seeing who is doin whatever it is they are doin to you with spies easily prevented Suicides are not.

Rassputtin
11-19-2008, 21:31
I think the covert aspect of spies is one of the founding elements of the spy. And the ability to do something without getting caught is kind of what they are for, if an op of ANY kind is successful, the victim doesn't know who did it. Info ops he doesnt even know he was opped, destructive ops he wouldnt know except the game says your stuff was destroyed.

Maybe we should take the announcement out..... idk, ill be back to make a much longer post in a minute

Xavior
11-19-2008, 21:32
THen please tell me why all the spy ops are available?

The reason why spies are at the forefront of this thing is because
1) it is easy to stop
2) you can't tell who did the succesful ops if they didn't fail 1
3) we have all had experiences with morons who don't spy first then fail 2 grabs on us

Okay, #3 isn't important, but the first two are.

Rassputtin
11-19-2008, 21:33
Are we really going to get to the point of making it a rule of what certain types of units people need to have? Cause blowing someones buildings up for not having spies is kinda like making it a law..

I dont want to beat a dead horse but i suggested and posted code to modify the way the units react to eachother so that, we don't have to dictate it as law, but the way they react requires some balance in order to be effective..... :scared: and imo eliminate the ability to suicide..
dang this thread is moving to fast... but we're talking about the patriot act until coding solution is found so......... ill be back in a minute to make a huge post.

Mr President
11-19-2008, 21:35
I cant believe im saying this but I agree because as it has been stated several time you dont need to have 2 or 3 million spies to stop or know who did it. Its not suicide if you dont get caught because there is no chance of you dying.Now I know most of you are gonna say thats supporting suicide> No it isnt because again if you dont get caught it isnt suicide cause you will not die. If I could AA someone who had nothing but INafntry to grab them cause there infantry couldnt see my state insignia on the saide of the ships miles of shore YOU CAN BET YOUR BOTTOM DOLLAR I WOULD BE AA'ING MY HINEY OFF ALL DAY LONG for that strategical advantage because as some of us stated before lets be realistic aint no way 125 million infantry are gonna shoot down my 3 million bombers flying overhead at 30000 feet dropping bombs on their head. Having spies gives you that chance at seeing who is doin whatever it is they are doin to you with spies easily prevented Suicides are not.

Murder is against the law.. So if i go out and murder someone, but don't get caught, then with what your saying, i didn't break the law.. :confused:


THen please tell me why all the spy ops are available?

The reason why spies are at the forefront of this thing is because
1) it is easy to stop
2) you can't tell who did the succesful ops if they didn't fail 1
3) we have all had experiences with morons who don't spy first then fail 2 grabs on us

Okay, #3 isn't important, but the first two are.


All i am doing is making an argument.. Making a case.. Trying to point things out that i know others will be feeling or saying.. Doesn't mean i am against you guys.. Simply making an argument so we come out with the best solution. :p

Mr President
11-19-2008, 21:36
ill be back in a minute to make a huge post.

:o

listen pal, huge post is my thing.. find your own darn thing.. :)

Divine Intervention
11-19-2008, 21:38
So should this be true for Inf and tanks and jets and bombers and ships?

why does spies stand out? who says people should pay for not having a certain unit?

So next set i make a nation and decide to make people pay for not having bombers.. Is this fair for me to do? If they have no bombers and i bomb them and don't fail one attack am i a suicider?

Are we really going to get to the point of making it a rule of what certain types of units people need to have? Cause blowing someones buildings up for not having spies is kinda like making it a law..

difference is. if i have 0 spies and bamboozled because of it...i don't know who did it. if i have 50mill inf and 0 ships and i get AAed...i know exactly who did it.

Xavior
11-19-2008, 21:40
difference is. if i have 0 spies and bamboozled because of it...i don't know who did it. if i have 50mill inf and 0 ships and i get AAed...i know exactly who did it.

Exactly! The whole point of spies is that you don't know who did it if they didnt' fail! If I do a few successful spy ops on someone, why should they know I was the one who did it? They shouldn't be able to run to the admin and beg for their help.

Mr President
11-19-2008, 21:43
ok.. i see your point on that..

but my question is, if someone does 100 spy ops and passes 99 of them but fails 1, what should happen?

Divine Intervention
11-19-2008, 21:45
ok.. i see your point on that..

but my question is, if someone does 100 spy ops and passes 99 of them but fails 1, what should happen?

well the defending state can report the player who failed the 1 spy op an investigation can be done to see whether he was responsible for the others (because who knows, maybe person A did 90 attacks whilst you were on 0 spies then you bought 300k and someone fails overview) and then appropriate measures should be taken afterwards (w/e the punishments are decided to be).

fact is. this is a completely different scenario to the ones previously listed because here you know who did the attacks (unless as i said, was some freak accident).

Xavior
11-19-2008, 21:45
ok.. i see your point on that..

but my question is, if someone does 100 spy ops and passes 99 of them but fails 1, what should happen?

Personally, I believe a pink name for the set will do. Deletion of the state (just like rollbacks) is divine intervention, and I am opposed to that.

Crimson Shadow
11-19-2008, 21:47
difference is. if i have 0 spies and bamboozled because of it...i don't know who did it. if i have 50mill inf and 0 ships and i get AAed...i know exactly who did it.

Exactly my thoughts. I think spy ops should be legal simply because they are the only unit that if successful, it is anonymous. For every other attack all you must do is check the GE or Home News and you can see exactly who it was.

Terrorist spy ops should be allowed unlimited attempts as long as you fail. If you send 200 and succeed 199 and fail one, then you will be labeled terrorist. Only problem that I could think of with this would be if someone was doing a legal intel and got caught while the terrorism was occurring (admin intervention to check?)


EDIT: Wow this is moving fast. 5 new posts in the time it took me to type that

Divine Intervention
11-19-2008, 21:49
Personally, I believe a pink name for the set will do. Deletion of the state (just like rollbacks) is divine intervention, and I am opposed to that.

:crying::crying:

Mr President
11-19-2008, 21:50
well the defending state can report the player who failed the 1 spy op an investigation can be done to see whether he was responsible for the others (because who knows, maybe person A did 90 attacks whilst you were on 0 spies then you bought 300k and someone fails overview) and then appropriate measures should be taken afterwards (w/e the punishments are decided to be).

fact is. this is a completely different scenario to the ones previously listed because here you know who did the attacks (unless as i said, was some freak accident).

The reason i ask such ridiculous questions is i have found if i don't ask now then things get left out and then i get hammered on them later on.


Personally, I believe a pink name for the set will do. Deletion of the state (just like rollbacks) is divine intervention, and I am opposed to that.

So your saying no matter what, no rollbacks and no deletions.. Just pink names?

::LD::GrimReapr
11-19-2008, 21:50
Marked as a terrorist and whatever other punishment goes with it.
Because when that person logs in and sees that amount of money or buildings or pop killed and then that 1 that failed is gonna be the one that proves who it was that did it because of the time log of when things happened. Because if you do 5-10 and dont get caught because the person doesnt have spies and go back to do it again and he still dont have spies his bad. If he does and you get caught then your bad you know the risks and implications of your actions. I guess thats my opinion on it. Im sure my Bro Rass will be inserting his 25 cents worth then as well.

Rassputtin
11-19-2008, 23:18
Suiciding - "Someone who destroys someone else for no reason or logical/strategical gain".

Nobody wants to take the thrill of warring out of this game. What we want is to take or limit the best we can, suiciding.

If you go to war due to revenge, you are not a suicider. If you war to advance in the scores, you are not a suicider. If you war as a pre-emptive action to protect your nation you are not a suicider. This is mainly a war game and people love to war. All we are doing is trying to help keep the ones who like to go off and destroy a state or a nation cause they find it funny and then hide there identity.


The defnition needs to be updated IMO with -


Suiciding - "Someone who destroys someone else for no reason or logical/strategical gain". and
and then hide there identity.

Which non simplified means, there is no reason for the destruction, they often act alone or maybe with one other person. These acts are done with no strategical gain to the attacker because they are immediately killed. (why its called suicide) And the attacker then hides thier identity by not confessing to the acts, although the state name and leader name are clear, only an admin could know "WHO' it really was. THE MAIN THING I THINK is that a suicider can not currently be stopped within the gameplay mechanics presently utilized.

That is a suicide. (imo) The simplified definition i think may be a detriment. Anyway moving on.

The punishments are clearly stated, and i think need minor work but that will come later as I am more concerned with what is even potentially considered a suicide. More importantly, as it pertains to spy ops.

Currently spy ops in excess are considered suicide. I think it is grossly wrong to place them into the same category, or to place thier use into the same column as suiciding actions.

Simply by reading the definition I"ve provided above you can see its not the same, but I will elaborate to better drive home my points.

1. Spies are in this game and many games as a covert unit. Meant to carry out covert operations preferably without getting caught. Whether it be to gather information, or perform sabotage, their sole purpose of existing is to carry out these missions covertly. When carried out covertly there is no chance of consequence which is the whole purpose of covert.

2. To fail an op alerts the target of whom and what covert operatives were doing on thier soil. Which depending on what they were doing is grounds for very severe consequences, sometimes death if the operatives are carrying out sabatoge missions. If you engage in espionage to carelessly you will be found out and pay the consequences.

3. The random factor on spy success and failure is 100 times plus or minus. So attacking spies and defending spies are on a whim up to 100 times stronger or weaker during every attack. Because of this it is VERY EASY for a defenders spies to catch attacking spies in the act. Which is why 99% of the time, unless at war states do not engage in destructive spy ops, the risks of getting caught are to high.

4. The fact that your spies can be 100 times stronger than they really are, while at teh same time attacking spies can be 100 times weaker than they really are means that someone would need 200 times more spy strength then you in order to successfully covert op you with 0% chance of failure.

5. Normally the only person with 200 times the military spy strength of someone else is a suicider who would have to have gone very heavy spy production in order to get that margin, or a very large state in comparison to a very small state, in which case, unless at war, normally a top ten netter isn't going to utilize his 200 times strength to mess with someone ranked 240th.

6. The exception to the rule is in those instances when a state feels it needs no spies. Thereby making him totally defenseless to detect covert operations. 100 times 0 is still 0. So 1 spy can do 300 covert operations without ever dreaming of failure. This is the most often occurence of destructive spy ops being used. It is the only time damage can be done to a competitor without fear of repercussions or consequences.

7. Spies are unique from the other units in every way, much like warring states can declare and make easy fodder of netters who think they need no jets, agms or ships, states who feel spies are important to the protection of thier state can make easy fodder of those who don't.

Spy opping someone who has no spies should not be considered a terroristic act for several key reasons.

Unlike tradionatal suiciding it can be prevented by acquiring spies, a state is choosing to be defenseless. Unlike a tradional suicide where the attacker can go 100% ships and break a state. The defending state has no choice to defend himself, he can not go 100% ships to defend against ships cause his state would be useless and the attacker would see that before hand and simply go jets. You can not stop a suicider. You can stop a destructive spy op, even with 200 times less spy military strength.

Xavior
11-19-2008, 23:19
The reason i ask such ridiculous questions is i have found if i don't ask now then things get left out and then i get hammered on them later on.



So your saying no matter what, no rollbacks and no deletions.. Just pink names?

We are talking first offense here. And unless a bunch of suiciders screw over half the nations, then no rollbacks should be used. These are suiciders, not cheaters.

I remember when Wide was in first place but got suicided. However, they were tagged cheaters a day later, this is when a rollback should happen.

Rassputtin
11-19-2008, 23:28
ok.. i see your point on that..

but my question is, if someone does 100 spy ops and passes 99 of them but fails 1, what should happen?


Nothing should happen. Well let me re-phrase that, whatever the victim and his nation think should happen as far as what they are gonna do about it.

As I said spies are intended to carry out covert missions. Part of being covert means, not necessarily at war, but still doing stuff that could cause one.

If I'm spy opping someone with 0 spies, and on my 100th try they got online and bought some spies and caught me then.... My hand is in the cookie jar.

And it is up to the victim nation to decide what to do.

I think that you will find that unless someone tries to make a point to prove me wrong, you will never see someone go 100% spies to suicide another state. Its simply a less effective means of doing it. Ga kills more pop then genocide, and you can't destroy land with spies.

I think that the only time admin should even consider looking into a spy op related "Suicide Report" submitted by a player is if that player had spies and thinks that someone went predominintly spy heavy to suicide them, or some rogue gunmen went op crazy not caring that he's getting caught every 4 tries and doesnt care if he's gonna die.

If thats not the situation, its not a suicide. If the player has 0 spies, delete report, if a player is in the top 20 with 2 days to go and has 10k spies, delete report.

To me it seems pretty clear what would be spy suicide and what would be someone trying NOT TO GET CAUGHT but getting nabbed with thier hand in the cookie jar.

And that is the fundamental difference. When I destroy someones buildings with 0 spies I do not want to get caught, I do not want to die for it. A suicider... doesnt care, and his actions will show he doesnt care. Which means he will either get caught multiple times on his opping run, or he will be insanely spy heavy to try to get away with it.

But even then you could see it, he would get caught, essentially once you hit say a million spies, were talking 200million spies to get opped with 0 chance of failure.

So like I said, carrying spies eliminates getting spy raped. unlike a suicider where you can do nothing to prevent it.

Rassputtin
11-23-2008, 18:12
Bump,


no one else has anything to say about this?

Calvin74
11-23-2008, 18:53
i think by doing what the admins just did ruins the point of having offensive spy ops
the whole point is that you can do it an not get caught
the spy random factor is so crazy that if you have 100-200k spies all set you will probably catch whoever is doing this to you and you won't have to worry about admins telling you what you would know if you had run a decent state

Mr President
05-17-2009, 18:43
It seems since the Patriot Act was put in place, members feel that anytime they are attacked they should get a roll back or the state marked a terrorist.
This is not the case. Whatever happened to states or nations fighting for there own honor? We are not here to preserve everyone a perfect set each time. We will not fix every attack. people do still have a right to play anyway they want to. And it's not our job to always fix it.

A certain member has been going around AAing others, and everyone is sitting there waiting for the admins to do something about it. Why would he not be killed already? The Patriot Act is not a safety blanket for every member. You all still have to take responsibility for protecting your states.

Divine Intervention
05-18-2009, 04:20
simply remove war attacks as an option if war/retaliations arent declared (meaning states without nations cant do war attacks either) between the 2 nations (doesnt matter who declared). this means war attacks can only be done under the approval of someone with F priv. usually leader. if leader of a nation agrees then its pretty much war rather than suicide.

Missionary
05-18-2009, 07:29
It seems since the Patriot Act was put in place, members feel that anytime they are attacked they should get a roll back or the state marked a terrorist.
This is not the case. Whatever happened to states or nations fighting for there own honor? We are not here to preserve everyone a perfect set each time. We will not fix every attack. people do still have a right to play anyway they want to. And it's not our job to always fix it.

A certain member has been going around AAing others, and everyone is sitting there waiting for the admins to do something about it. Why would he not be killed already? The Patriot Act is not a safety blanket for every member. You all still have to take responsibility for protecting your states.

to right, im surprised he was still alive after the 1st days attack, let alone the second. as soon as i saw the attacks on the ELD member we planned to kill the state, nubz was also on so we got the job done.

ive heard of alot of people complaining about wanting there states rolled back, but 8 states or so getting rolled back? no chance, ur lucky if you get one. plus there was only about 10 AAs and an SA at the end of each state attacked. i know its a screw over but its not alot of damage really.

MAGGIO
05-18-2009, 10:11
why dont we take all attacks away and just expand and build?