View Full Version : Money Laundering in Nation Wars
We all Understand that money Laundering in reality is illegal, its a way of cheating the system.
I'd like to know everyones opinion on this issue.
When one or more state re-sells all of its military repeatedly this feeds money in to the national bank.
By doing this The nation can have a much lower tax than needed, A nation can have a tax rate of 5% and have the Tech and National Army of a nation with a tax rate of 20%.
This allows a few chosen states within that nation to excel, with an unfair advantage.
At the time only a few players participate in such actions.
A New player that might come to this game would have absolutely no chance of competing with a nation that takes these unfair advantages.
In order for them to be competitive, (which is the fun part of most games) they would need to adopt a similar strategy.
If I was a new player and I was forced to adopt a money laundering strategy in order to compete, I would likely leave the game fairly quickly, and find a game that is constructed more fairly.
The question I pose is this:
Is money laundering in nation wars considered acceptable play?
Mr President
05-16-2012, 15:33
If it turns out to be unacceptable within the game, how would you fix this?
If it turns out to be unacceptable within the game, how would you fix this?
This is the real question.
We could return the sale time for goods back to 6-8 hours, or whatever it was. we could even goto 12 hours...
We could put a limit on sales, of 1 sale per day.
We could make it so that you were unable to buy your Own Goods back from the market.
These are some quick ideas...
Likely there must be some solution, if we all thought about it as a community, I am only 1 man.
Z
So "Money Laundering" is states sacrificing a chance of a good finish in order to benefit the rest of the tag? That's not too different to the old days where you would have a techer or two for every nation. While I can see why people don't like it, I don't have a problem with this in principle.
MellonColly
05-16-2012, 16:03
ya its really no different like will said from the old days when you could donate tech to the nation...
Really any nation can do this, so I don't think its an unfair advantage like you say, its more of a we can do it so we will do it thing.
now how to fix it.
Don't let nations buy army from the public market.
Have the tax rate be the only way an army is drafted.
Nations can only buy tech from the market.
ummmm
Lower the tax on the sold goods...Have it so sold goods only put in 5% while producing goods puts in 20% or whatever the tax is.
just a few ideas. spin em how you want
Only allowing NA through draft will thoroughly screw non-indy nations. Stopping nations buying off the PM is probably the best solution out of those.
ya its really no different like will said from the old days when you could donate tech to the nation...
Really any nation can do this, so I don't think its an unfair advantage like you say, its more of a we can do it so we will do it thing.
now how to fix it.
Don't let nations buy army from the public market.
Have the tax rate be the only way an army is drafted.
Nations can only buy tech from the market.
ummmm
Lower the tax on the sold goods...Have it so sold goods only put in 5% while producing goods puts in 20% or whatever the tax is.
just a few ideas. spin em how you want
thanks for the ideas Ang. It might come down to which of these ideas are plausible to implement.
I agree with what you and Will said, in tht it is no diferent than the old days, except now it requires some thought and sneakiness. There is nothing in the manual or instructions about this strategy.
When a new player comes to join a game, they will usually give it a chance if they like the game. Maybe they will take a few sets to learn the ins and outs.
Once they learn how to play, they would expect to be competitive, otherwise they may leave.
If this is something that IS acceptable maybe we should consider re-instating the techer feeder states option, so that we all at least know about it, and its a level playing field.
Z
::LD::GrimReapr
05-16-2012, 17:12
It's just like Real life money laundering is illegal and shouldn't be used By any leader with morals but we all know how that goes. I'm sure if You take a poll and actually receive honest answers on who does this you would prolly have 2 maybe 3 nations I'm guessing 2. I'll leave it at that since I'm am trying To be more Civil on the forums.
on teams there is superstars, and non superstars. The superstars usually score with assist from the non superstars. The non superstars are happy to help because it lifts the whole team. It sounds like your looking for a team of equally skilled players which does not exist. Many times a pawn will be sacraficed to save the king.
I get what your saying Z, and I get why you would be mad, but I dont think its a major loophole, and I dont think its illegal. We have to be extremely careful about how the market works around here because it drives the entire game and the fact that the market fluxes is the heart and sole of the game and the different strats.
What I do love about this game, is that a nation who can identify this issue can form an opinion and certainly reserves the right to level the nation who is doing it.
The market was recently changed to allow faster sales becuase of lack in membership and lack of items on the market. Many states cant use turns, or get high NW with out a fast market.
-Z-, what happens if it is a close ally who does it? Is it still wrong?
Just wondering as Found and Cultivated from LoR has been doing it all set.
MellonColly
05-17-2012, 09:13
hey you knock it off dogma...don't give other valid examples
also you should edit the poll questions so it's not such a loaded answer....you steer people towards one answer...make it a fair poll.
how can we better phrase the questions in the poll?
Z
MellonColly
05-17-2012, 11:22
well first of all I wouldnt call it money laundering.
How about....Are the current game mechanics acceptable pertaining to Nation Army and taxing.
By calling it money laundering you are already pigeon holing the answerer to accept that it is money laundering.
Money laundering refers to the process of concealing the source of legally, illegally, and grey area obtained monies.
It would seem that the National banks of nations would be receiving these monies through a concealed source, weather illegal or legal, it still is money laundering by definition.
Calling it anything else would actually be misinforming.
Z
MellonColly
05-17-2012, 12:41
actually money laundering is concealing the source of ONLY illegally gotten money.
There is nothing being done illegally here.
another definition
The process of taking the proceeds of criminal activity and making them appear legal.
Again...nothing criminal done here. Everything they are doing is well within the rules...
You expanded on the definition there so it fits your need :P
I have to agree with Ang on this one. You did steer the poll to basically obtain the answer as you see it to be correct by the wording of your options. Which is exactly why I decided not to vote in it.
Even though he scolded me in a previous post.
I voted that I don't care.
The newbies shouldn't be able to win after they have learned that pure strategy works the best.
Divine Intervention
05-17-2012, 15:19
tbf i dont really have an issue with this (not least of all because I believe I had such help when I won in my 5 man tag...but even then the person who was doing it finished top3 lol and because I've helped others do this too). its commendable that they repeatedly find players who are willing to put enough time in to contribute to the nation but not too much that it makes it a real loss for them to do this. fact is if you want to win a set you have to be organized and plan things. you can't just wing it randomly doing **** grabs OOP and then hoping your little first 5 day jump is going to get you the win. bottom line is - instead of criticizing them each nation should easily be able to have atleast 1-2 players who are semi active and there to help the tag.
I think devil should be banned from using turns. He clearly doesnt want to win the set, but he still uses turns and creates NA for LoR!!!
ICN will have 5% tax next set, everybody come ICN!
BladeEWG
05-17-2012, 16:36
Since there is nothing being done that any other tag or player can't do I can't see how it is illegal.
There are some very skilled players in this game(not me) that know what to do and do so.
if its the same capability that everyone else has then its just basically down to skill level and co ordination.
the Estonians are very good at it, just as they were at Sky before
Talking with blaa and margus just wants me to move to a closer time zone ;)
tbf i dont really have an issue with this (not least of all because I believe I had such help when I won in my 5 man tag...but even then the person who was doing it finished top3 lol and because I've helped others do this too). its commendable that they repeatedly find players who are willing to put enough time in to contribute to the nation but not too much that it makes it a real loss for them to do this. fact is if you want to win a set you have to be organized and plan things. you can't just wing it randomly doing **** grabs OOP and then hoping your little first 5 day jump is going to get you the win. bottom line is - instead of criticizing them each nation should easily be able to have atleast 1-2 players who are semi active and there to help the tag.
Since there is nothing being done that any other tag or player can't do I can't see how it is illegal.
There are some very skilled players in this game(not me) that know what to do and do so.
if its the same capability that everyone else has then its just basically down to skill level and co ordination.
the Estonians are very good at it, just as they were at Sky before
Talking with blaa and margus just wants me to move to a closer time zone ;)
I have to agree with these posts as well. Everyone knows it takes a nation to win a set, otherwise you would see untagged states winning. I see no issue with what they are doing as for a long time now I have not worried about my own finish but the nation and members. I am a supporter of the nation and my turns help whoever is on top from my nation. This game is set up to emulate an economy and is interactive in a way that what you do either helps or hinders your nation. Selling all your military while being high in land actually hurts your ability to help because if you are caught low you get raped for land, ain't that right 33?
If you want to use this as a reason to war a certain nation, then war them. But just like GRIM coming in here trying to change the mechanics of the game simply because they don't like how someone plays is wrong, saying that someone sacrificing their own state to benefit their nation is wrong.
Sorry, I can't agree with the premise that it is feeding, not to mention it was determined long ago that feeding in that way is not against TOS.
DevilDog
05-17-2012, 19:29
If you want to use this as a reason to war a certain nation, then war them. But just like GRIM coming in here trying to change the mechanics of the game simply because they don't like how someone plays is wrong, saying that someone sacrificing their own state to benefit their nation is wrong.
Sorry, I can't agree with the premise that it is feeding, not to mention it was determined long ago that feeding in that way is not against TOS.
Same thing can be said for everytime you get on the forums and spout off something like:....
If I find the idiot undercutting, I will make it so you don't sell anymore. THis I promise you!!!
Talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth...pfft.
@dogma, i didn't do it all set long, i sold my army during the last 13-12 days to help Ang101 on NA.. you can't compete on someone with 900k lvl1 spies, 250M inf, 1M SAMs and 10M ships.. so i decided to sell and boost our NA, thought Ang101 still had the shot.. and yeah you will be raped doing this, but if you do it right, getting those land back is easy.. which i didn't actually lol
On the poll question: i'm 50/50 on this.. because if you are on a small tag, selling your army can be very helpful..
Talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth...pfft.
LOL on that one, im sure Im guilty of it too
It Is looking like maybe we should all be doing this if we want to have an even playing field.
So I might begin it myself...
Its too bad for the new players that will likely either not know about it, or see it as cheating in some way, and leave the game.
Z
It Is looking like maybe we should all be doing this if we want to have an even playing field.
So I might begin it myself...
Its too bad for the new players that will likely either not know about it, or see it as cheating in some way, and leave the game.
Z
I doubt most new players will notice it.
MellonColly
05-18-2012, 11:09
@dogma, i didn't do it all set long, i sold my army during the last 13-12 days to help Ang101 on NA.. you can't compete on someone with 900k lvl1 spies, 250M inf, 1M SAMs and 10M ships.. so i decided to sell and boost our NA, thought Ang101 still had the shot.. and yeah you will be raped doing this, but if you do it right, getting those land back is easy.. which i didn't actually lol
On the poll question: i'm 50/50 on this.. because if you are on a small tag, selling your army can be very helpful..
Your 20$ should arrive in the mail later next week for boosting the NA for me :P
Divine Intervention
05-18-2012, 14:31
It Is looking like maybe we should all be doing this if we want to have an even playing field.
So I might begin it myself...
Its too bad for the new players that will likely either not know about it, or see it as cheating in some way, and leave the game.
Z
considering you waste a lot of WLF NA with your grabs, I think this decision just made WLF more competitive Netting wise xD
Maybe its a necessary evil? I do it a lot in nations when I'm in a netting set and don't have as much time to pursue a high rank- oftentimes I'm more than glad to function as a NA battery since top guys grabbing will put a drain on the NA otherwise- I just bottomfeed like a lazy catfish and drop a huge chunk of army every so often.
I doubt most new players will notice it.
not likely. They will continue to come and go as they always have.
considering you waste a lot of WLF NA with your grabs, I think this decision just made WLF more competitive Netting wise xD
Well they would be without alot of land and NW, but perhaps.
Z
the only real issue i have with this is that it benefits the larger tags, who in my eyes allready are way to dominant on the server.
even if a 5 man tag uses four of its players to do the same, the 15 man tag will be able to outproduce and resell them by putting up 4-6 of their own while 2 focus on top ranking and the other 7 handle the competition. Is that illegal? No, is it undesirable in a well populated server (500+)? No, is it desirable in a server with 70 active players at most? yes.
i realize Ang/Lor is currently running top with a 5 man tag, but without the wars we all know the odds would be stacked well against them....
just my 2 cents
Divine Intervention
05-25-2012, 06:05
the only real issue i have with this is that it benefits the larger tags, who in my eyes allready are way to dominant on the server.
even if a 5 man tag uses four of its players to do the same, the 15 man tag will be able to outproduce and resell them by putting up 4-6 of their own while 2 focus on top ranking and the other 7 handle the competition. Is that illegal? No, is it undesirable in a well populated server (500+)? No, is it desirable in a server with 70 active players at most? yes.
i realize Ang/Lor is currently running top with a 5 man tag, but without the wars we all know the odds would be stacked well against them....
just my 2 cents
thing is that 15-20man nation won't be able to put up for 5-7 people to help out the tag. Only Sky has such dedication and even then they usually have probs 3. When I won my set I had a 5-6man tag with 1-2 people helping NA and we were competing against top netters in 2 v.big nations (15+ ) who had really good NA + tech. was hard but doable.
MellonColly
05-25-2012, 07:46
if im smart with my grabs the NA loss is minimal...most of the time you can attack too without the NA and that really helps
another draw back to the big nations is people are constantly hitting all their guys...which means more NA lost, also most of their guys are probably using NA as well...So like DI said...its very hard, but doable.
Yes without the wars tho...i wouldnt be where i am.
Divine Intervention
05-25-2012, 13:13
if im smart with my grabs the NA loss is minimal...most of the time you can attack too without the NA and that really helps
another draw back to the big nations is people are constantly hitting all their guys...which means more NA lost, also most of their guys are probably using NA as well...So like DI said...its very hard, but doable.
Yes without the wars tho...i wouldnt be where i am.
yep. smart NA use is an important thing. in such situations if you can get away without sending NA (which as top1 state you should be able to) do it. and try and have the whole nation follow similar principles. in part thats why i like small tags more....much easier to have everyone running efficiently for the good of everyone. with bigger tags I remember as soon as 1 person jumps and starts to net then everyone wants to and hits NA bad :D
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