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Mr President
05-28-2014, 12:40
Just a few changes for the June round:

Market Times - The random arrival times have been changed back to 3-6hrs.

Food/Oil Prices - Both resources have been set to 110.00 max sell price.

Food/Oil Values - These have been adjusted slightly. I think farmer is getting back to where it needs to be.

Market Analysis - New charts have been added to reflect market activity. You can select how may days back you wish to view. This will show you market trends for sales and prices for everything sold on the Public Market. I still have a little bit of work to do on it, but for the main part it is fully functional.

zaxZ
05-28-2014, 14:13
What about lvl 12 spies or bombers? Still possible or only lvl8?

Superpasha69
05-28-2014, 14:48
Good Job MrP!! Thanks for keeping the game fresh!

I have one question, if market times are at 3-6 hours...then how the hell are we gonna feed? :d

Missionary
05-29-2014, 03:17
ya just gotta sit on the computer refreshing for a longer period lol

blaa
05-29-2014, 05:29
I'm going to continue my rant on the food/oil and inf/tanks on this topic as well.
Last set, before the wars, there were 2 oilers + some mixed strategy states, who had oil rigs. Those 2 oilers lubricated the whole game easily. Too easily, so one of the oilers switched strategies. There was a possibility that there might not be enough oil on the market on the last few days, but that one oiler took the chance.
That one oiler had over 20k land. That's more than 1 million oil per turn. That's like 200m oil per day. That's a huge amount. People were buying oil with quantities ranging from 1m to 20m. You can't succesfully play oiler this way. You need your money, you need it now (or in 12h), but you just can't be competitive if it takes days.
Farmers had it even worse, so I'm not even going there.
So current situation - play farmer/oiler when you just want to expand/sell/buy ships at the end. 150m/200m nw should be ok. But you can not win a set with oiler/farmer.

Question - should you be able to win a set as a farmer/oiler? Should you be able to win with normal strategy proportions? Normal proportions mean that there are enough indies/cashers/oilers/techers/farmers. this means that you aren't just winning because you are the only state running that particular strategy.

If oiler/farmer are meant for expanding states and not competitive states, then I guess it's okay and do not read any further.

But if all strategies are meant to be competitive, then oiler/farmer need a change. Shouldn't increase production. The resources aren't selling anyway. Reduce production/increase price? Increase demand?
Is our playerbase big enough to just tweak some constants and get things right?
I personally don't think so. We do not have enough players. One set we will have too few oilers, next set we have a flood of oil.
I think we should remove one of the strategies. Or basically merge them into one strategy (see the thread in suggestions subforum) so they can switch their production just like indies change their production. The latter one would be better, because mr president likes his oil.

Now to my second favorite subject: ground units.
Why on earth are there two of those. Just because there would be a reason to have both food and oil? The food demand is big enough. Last set the units I had consuming primarily food were spies. And still my food demand was 1/3 of oil demand.
infantry and tanks create confusion. On a set where there are not enough indies, there will be a situation when you can't get either of those, or according to Murphy you would get the unit you didn't upgrade.
Before the oil/food nobody used tanks anyway. Now there's a dilemma. Lets lose the dilemma and lose one of those units. If you don't want to lose tanks because you want tanks to be in your game, then rename some of the infantry upgrade levels to be related with tanks. Like level 8 to be Infantry with tank support or what have you.


Summary:
merge oiler/farmer
lose tanks

Mr President
05-29-2014, 09:32
What about lvl 12 spies or bombers? Still possible or only lvl8?

Level 12 Spies and Bombers have been removed. Only Jets can receive Level 12.


I'm going to continue my rant on the food/oil and inf/tanks on this topic as well.
Last set, before the wars, there were 2 oilers + some mixed strategy states, who had oil rigs. Those 2 oilers lubricated the whole game easily. Too easily, so one of the oilers switched strategies. There was a possibility that there might not be enough oil on the market on the last few days, but that one oiler took the chance.
That one oiler had over 20k land. That's more than 1 million oil per turn. That's like 200m oil per day. That's a huge amount. People were buying oil with quantities ranging from 1m to 20m. You can't succesfully play oiler this way. You need your money, you need it now (or in 12h), but you just can't be competitive if it takes days.
Farmers had it even worse, so I'm not even going there.
So current situation - play farmer/oiler when you just want to expand/sell/buy ships at the end. 150m/200m nw should be ok. But you can not win a set with oiler/farmer.

Question - should you be able to win a set as a farmer/oiler? Should you be able to win with normal strategy proportions? Normal proportions mean that there are enough indies/cashers/oilers/techers/farmers. this means that you aren't just winning because you are the only state running that particular strategy.

If oiler/farmer are meant for expanding states and not competitive states, then I guess it's okay and do not read any further.

But if all strategies are meant to be competitive, then oiler/farmer need a change. Shouldn't increase production. The resources aren't selling anyway. Reduce production/increase price? Increase demand?
Is our playerbase big enough to just tweak some constants and get things right?
I personally don't think so. We do not have enough players. One set we will have too few oilers, next set we have a flood of oil.
I think we should remove one of the strategies. Or basically merge them into one strategy (see the thread in suggestions subforum) so they can switch their production just like indies change their production. The latter one would be better, because mr president likes his oil.

Now to my second favorite subject: ground units.
Why on earth are there two of those. Just because there would be a reason to have both food and oil? The food demand is big enough. Last set the units I had consuming primarily food were spies. And still my food demand was 1/3 of oil demand.
infantry and tanks create confusion. On a set where there are not enough indies, there will be a situation when you can't get either of those, or according to Murphy you would get the unit you didn't upgrade.
Before the oil/food nobody used tanks anyway. Now there's a dilemma. Lets lose the dilemma and lose one of those units. If you don't want to lose tanks because you want tanks to be in your game, then rename some of the infantry upgrade levels to be related with tanks. Like level 8 to be Infantry with tank support or what have you.


Summary:
merge oiler/farmer
lose tanks


Before we were killed last set, we couldn't produce enough food. The only time mine sat on the market for any lengths of time is when everyone was undercutting.
Farmer took a hit when Oil came into play. We knew it would, but we needed to start somewhere. Each set we tweak things and I believe it gets better. I like the idea of combining farmer/Oil and Science into one "Resource" strat. I set things up on a test server and really like the way it's working. However, EVERYTHING in the game has to be changed. I didn't realize how much change would be needed until I got into things. Will the merge happen, Yes... But it will be a while.

As for Tanks and Bombers. I am still seriously considering having just one unit for each. Spies, Infantry, Jets and Ships. I really don't see any other way of making tanks and bombers useful at this time. Maybe in the future we can figure something out and bring them back but I think I think they are coming to the end.

Summary:
merge oiler/farmer - Will happen in near future
lose tanks- Will happen along with bombers

blaa
05-29-2014, 09:52
Awesome, this is like music to my ears, if I'd like music.

Back to jets/bombers/sams. You mentioned you'd only keep jets eventually. Later you implied to remove tanks and bombers. No mention of sams. Will sams be kept in with jets? Because I don't see how sams and jets are overlapping. One is strong for defence, other one is weak but you can use it to attack and defend. So I think jets and sams will be kept in?

Mr President
05-29-2014, 10:26
Yes, SAMS will stay. I accidentally left them out. But was mainly speaking of attack units.

I was thinking that we should just have one of each of the forces.

Intelligence - Spies
Ground Forces - Infantry
Air Forces - Jets
Naval Forces - Ships

and SAMS would remain. Not sure that we need 2 of each of the forces like we have now. (except ships)

The other option I thought of was, remove bombers and Tanks but add Turrets as a defensive unit for ground forces. There are a lot of things we can do or try. The game is small, the sky is the limit :)

Missionary
05-29-2014, 13:43
with the whole oiler, farmer problem. why not just merge the nation tech for oiler and farmer so they are under 1 tech option. both would get the bonus and you can still build on farmer and oil as seperate buildings to increase production. this way the lack of one would make it far easier to switch to the other as demand changes within the set.

Mr President
05-29-2014, 15:06
with the whole oiler, farmer problem. why not just merge the nation tech for oiler and farmer so they are under 1 tech option. both would get the bonus and you can still build on farmer and oil as seperate buildings to increase production. this way the lack of one would make it far easier to switch to the other as demand changes within the set.

We could do that. The only reason they are separate right now was to help the techer strat.

heyneken
05-29-2014, 16:28
The random events change is terrible. Why even have it in the first place? I mean, what's the point? Let's just guess a random number and whoever gets closest wins the round :)

northbabylon
05-29-2014, 16:35
If we add turrets to the game we would likely get even more flack from the earth community.

There units are spies, troops, jets, turrets and tanks.

Spies are used for well... Spying
Troops for ground attacks
Jets for destroying land
Turrets for def (like sams)
Tanks to destroy buildings

Also, they use oil for war attacks and not for upkeep.

With the changes this set there are some differences to keep in mind between tanks and infantry.


Infantry had a much higher military str then tanks.

Tanks had a much higher nw then infantry.

If you were planning on warring, infantry was the best move.
Tanks if you were netting.

There was only 1 nation supporting infantry last set and that was ZA.

As for bombers, they are kinda useless since they provide 0 defense.

Also, maybe have alternating values for attack and def.

Infantry for def would be 1.6 while str would be 1.2 or so. Meaning infantry was giving you a lot more def then str.

Tanks would have def of 6.5 with and attack of 10.5 meaning they would be great for attacking not for defending.

Jets 4.42 attack and maybe 1 def.

Etc.

MarineRecon
05-29-2014, 18:27
awesome additions pres!!!

Missionary
05-29-2014, 20:32
We could do that. The only reason they are separate right now was to help the techer strat.

i see where your coming from but no1 remains techer for much more than a week or so, the amound needed to fill both on tech centre isnt much more. think it hampers both farmer and oiler more than it gives gains to techer.

Superpasha69
05-30-2014, 07:37
Imo bombers are were not useless, but they are now as you removed the lvl 12 event for them.
Last war we had in NiP we had 2-3 states with bombers using them to great effect

Making inf and tanks in to 1 unit, also takes away a strategic choice of being depended predominately on oil or food.
Since oil was introduced NiP been supporting tanks, for main reason of not being dependent on two other strategies, only one (yes we all need food too but its small amount so no big loss if purchased from BM)

Strategy merge of Oil/Food/Tech is a good and bad idea.
I think it is good for now, as we are small members and if war happens and Farmer/Oilers get killed then there is no replacement, as we saw last set. So as one strategy being able to set production liek INDY it would work great, as there is mmore demand for tech in war times too.
But if membership grows, then why not have 5 strategies instead of proposed 3.

IMO leave those three as it is, and work on units first...when you get units sorted then you can see better what opportunity there is for Farmers Oilers and Techers.

I agree with Heyneken about the random events too..I thought lvl 12 bombers and spies was perfect. Leave out the key units out of the random events. As previously random event were mainly beneficial to warring and didn't not have much effect on netting.
Now if you get a random during first few days on level 8 tanks, then it straight up gives u a huge advantage, and in a race to the top this small random event would almost determine the winner.

zaxZ
05-30-2014, 08:54
lvl12 spies kicks ***! And why not.. as your state grows, the strenght of your troops fades and you need science to regain that? Kinda like nations tech. (I have not thought about the details.. just a random thought). Otherwise I would need feeders, if I want to win as a scientist.

AnAveragejoey
05-30-2014, 10:37
with the whole oiler, farmer problem. why not just merge the nation tech for oiler and farmer so they are under 1 tech option. both would get the bonus and you can still build on farmer and oil as seperate buildings to increase production. this way the lack of one would make it far easier to switch to the other as demand changes within the set.

This. Techer is doing just fine. I dont believe any nations have been supporting both Farm and Oil to this point. I think having seperate Techs would be possible if there was enough demand for the resources that a nation could run only oil/farm and support an NA.

If you want to help the tech strat, make it so unit levels need science to maintain there lv8 status every couple of turns. Unless there is set long demand for science techer will always be a 2 week strat tops.

Mr President
05-30-2014, 15:41
I removed the random event changes. The only military random you can receive is level 12 Jets, Bombers and Spies.

MarineRecon
05-30-2014, 18:43
I agree with joey...I played techer for about 2 weeks maybe into the 3rd week

maybe have the amount of tech increase based off how much networth you have or certain times in the round...if you upgrade early than the less needed but the longer you wait the more you need??? idk just throwing out ideas

Margus
05-31-2014, 08:13
I enjoyed reading this thread and enjoyed every post on it. Good ideas!

Northbabylons turret idea I can understand well and even though it is a good idea, I vote for not implementing it because it is another change that makes things different but not much better.




Summary:
merge oiler/farmer - Will happen in near future
lose tanks- Will happen along with bombers

Very good! I'd even merge techer in there so it would be easier. We need the game to be more like checkers and less like chess if we ever think of getting any new players (both games are good). Remove as many confusing factors as possible. The game will still be fun and this games strongest sides for new players are 30 days set system, strategy and stuff like grabbing, warring, netting etc. Weakest side is that this game is too hard to learn when there are so many different factors that may ruin your whole set. Lately I have tried out some text based online games and most of them are too confusing. Every game wants to be different I guess. I'll end this topic as we all have talked a lot about new players and what needs to be changed to get them.

3-6h market time. Very good!

Last thing - make tanks minimum price 10-15% lower from max price, just like it is for every unit except tanks which has 30%.