Retaliation Grievance Thread

[Mr President]

I seem to remember a feature being abused when I warred someone and there was no rollback then nor was there a loss of turns this in my opinion is an abuse of power. I am not playing this set but I find it a crock of **** that not only was there a rollback but the turns were lost to that states that were involved but yet nothing seemed to happen to states that went into vacation using a loophole and then came out of vacation joining another nation to kill us. I also believe the consequences for abusing this loophole or any loophole should be posted and not made up along the way. Incase none of you know about the loophole I am talking about feel free to look at the bottom of my signature.

You got my vote LOR maybe ill play this set to help you out.

Grim there is a difference here. First, nothing was ever stated that going into vacation mode was against the rules UNTIL it happened to your nation. It was your nation that got that whole issue changed and now you can't enter it if your in a war.. I would think you would be happy that your nation was the leading reason is was changed.

It was clearly stated what the Retaliation feature was to be used for. I did take into consideration that the post was not read by members like Devil who was not around when the feature took place, and that is why states were not deleted.. The only loss was turns, and i still hold firm that it was fair.. Even though most in LoR doesn't see it that way.

I can only fix the loopholes when they are found and abused. And i try to be as fair as possible. In your case there really wasn't much i could do as nothing was even stated in a post. But i did fix that loophole and i kinda thought you would be happy about that.. guess not... There will NEVER be a day that i can please everyone with whatever decision i make. But all should know that i do consult other people for opinions on things all the time. Rarely do i ever make a decision by myself.. And one more thing to add, i don't have a admins manual. I am learning as i go. Many times i will mess up, but at all time my intentions are always for the better of the game. And one thing i NEVER do is seek out one nation and try to hurt them in anyway... I really do try to be fair as possible.

No wonder nobody plays this gay *** game. Just from reading all this crap has made me want to rejoin this game for a set or two just to play with LOR. As long as they keep killing you whining pansies like Maggio,Anton, Mrs.P, and all you babies in SLOB. Nice to see all you idiots from NS jumped over to the happy do gooders SLOB. Seriously man, THE BILLS SUCK! TO can't save your crappy *** team from sucking worse then this game.

whoa hold on there tiger.... "Mrs P" didn't make one comment about this war. My post is simply taking care of a loophole... And i'm sorry you feel this is a gay @ss game.. Many others enjoy it.. I do have to agree, some of these people in here are whiners though.. And you know who you are ..

[Mhaphew]

Mr. P

Punishing someone for exploiting a loophole is not the best plan of action.

The best plan of action is to plug the hole and move on.

Like you said, you cannot and will not please everyone, but you do tend to please those that whine a lot.

How about stop pleasing those that whine a lot and maybe they will stop whining.

If we were going to punish everyone that found a loop hole in some way and or form, then the top 1-2 every set would be banned for exploiting loop holes.

The nations that helped those members get the top 1-2 spot would also get banned.

Everyone who jumped out of a nation and traded GB with members of the same nation would get banned.

I can go on forever but you get the point..

[BB]

and if it had been you that it happened to you uld not shut up till something was done about it..... and we have been down that road before.... Personally I feel the offending states should have been deleted and tagged cheater seeing as they knew there was a loophole prior to being caught using it..... But does explain all devils questions last set concerning the retaliation feature...

[Devil]

and if it had been you that it happened to you uld not shut up till something was done about it..... and we have been down that road before.... Personally I feel the offending states should have been deleted and tagged cheater seeing as they knew there was a loophole prior to being caught using it..... But does explain all devils questions last set concerning the retaliation feature...

you mean where you told me you thought it was where we could only hit one state with that? And not to mention the fact the you neglected to mention anything about it being illegal to use for war purposes (and as an admin i would expect you to have known this)

[pron]

Grim there is a difference here. First, nothing was ever stated that going into vacation mode was against the rules UNTIL it happened to your nation. It was your nation that got that whole issue changed and now you can't enter it if your in a war.. I would think you would be happy that your nation was the leading reason is was changed.

Seems that Grim is only upset because you say a loophole should be punished, but you didn't punish the previous one. You might say there was nothing said about the vacation mode, but the fact stands that there was nothing in the TOS about the retal being used as a war act. If someone plays the game, and never goes on the forums, you would be penalizing someone who would not have known. Every enforcement of a rule needs to come from the game TOS that a person can read without going on the forums. The only rules you, as an admin, should enforce are those in the TOS.

People will say it wasn't the intended function of the retal declaration, but the same is said for vacation mode and how PAIN used it. The reasons for the loophole were the same, yet you did nothing before and now you go and instead of resetting things, you penalize one side and give an advantage to another.

It was clearly stated what the Retaliation feature was to be used for. I did take into consideration that the post was not read by members like Devil who was not around when the feature took place, and that is why states were not deleted.. The only loss was turns, and i still hold firm that it was fair.. Even though most in LoR doesn't see it that way.

You penalized players who didn't know they were doing anything wrong. How is that fair? You say you didn't delete them, but just because you don't go to the extreme doesn't mean you did right. The lesser of two evils is still not a good, or in this case, fair.

After reinstating the two states that were killed, you didn't give back the 800 some turns to kill them, the 800 some turns it took to kill them again, or the 800 turns that they had together. A 2400 turn swing. Something fair would have been going back before the retal declaration, resetting every state and fixing the loophole. There were more options, but you were too stubborn and proud to admit that you weren't/aren't being fair.

I can only fix the loopholes when they are found and abused. And i try to be as fair as possible. In your case there really wasn't much i could do as nothing was even stated in a post. But i did fix that loophole and i kinda thought you would be happy about that.. guess not... There will NEVER be a day that i can please everyone with whatever decision i make. But all should know that i do consult other people for opinions on things all the time. Rarely do i ever make a decision by myself.. And one more thing to add, i don't have a admins manual. I am learning as i go. Many times i will mess up, but at all time my intentions are always for the better of the game. And one thing i NEVER do is seek out one nation and try to hurt them in anyway... I really do try to be fair as possible.

I don't expect you'll ever come upon a decision that everyone likes, but penalizing one side and giving an advantage to the other, instead of equalizing what happened, is not fair. In any situation. Your job as an admin is to set straight, not crooked. If someone cheated, then you delete them. Who cheated? Where in the TOS did it say anything? You didn't take the proper steps as an admin, and now you come down hard on us because of your mistake in not changing the TOS. Maybe it's time you just own up that you slacked on your admin job, set the balance of power back where it should be, and admit you were wrong.

[Mr President]

Mr. P

Punishing someone for exploiting a loophole is not the best plan of action.

The best plan of action is to plug the hole and move on.

Like you said, you cannot and will not please everyone, but you do tend to please those that whine a lot.

How about stop pleasing those that whine a lot and maybe they will stop whining.

If we were going to punish everyone that found a loop hole in some way and or form, then the top 1-2 every set would be banned for exploiting loop holes.

The nations that helped those members get the top 1-2 spot would also get banned.

Everyone who jumped out of a nation and traded GB with members of the same nation would get banned.

I can go on forever but you get the point..

There was only one person who brought this issue to my attention, and all the message said was there is a loophole problem with the retaliation system.. I didn't post my first message till after i had looked into everything. My normal rule of thumb is to read the reports long before i come on the forums and read the complaints .. That way i don't have to see anyone's whines until after i've checked it all out..

And i have to disagree with not punishing those who abuse loopholes. And i'm sure you would as well under the right circumstances.. Like say you held the highest NW in the record book, but someone found a loophole and used it to beat your records.. I'm sure you would not be saying just plug the hole and move on..

Anyway, the action has happened the decision was made and i'm not going to keep going back and forth over it.. If anyone has anymore complaints over this issue please send them HERE ..

Thank you!

[Mr President]

Seems that Grim is only upset because you say a loophole should be punished, but you didn't punish the previous one. You might say there was nothing said about the vacation mode, but the fact stands that there was nothing in the TOS about the retal being used as a war act. If someone plays the game, and never goes on the forums, you would be penalizing someone who would not have known. Every enforcement of a rule needs to come from the game TOS that a person can read without going on the forums. The only rules you, as an admin, should enforce are those in the TOS.

There is no way i can add every little thing or possible thing in the TOS. Holy **** i would be on here all night and still miss 10,000 things. That is why we make the TOS a "General" overview of the rules and handle each instance in a case by case manner, cause there is no way one rule can cover every instance...and then at the bottom of the TOS is clearly says:

"19. - Do not try to cleverly circumvent some rule listed here. These rules are general guidelines and are very flexible.
Violations are either automatically dealt with, or looked at and dealt with on a case by case praxis. If you know about someone else that is cheating you have to report him/her. Not doing so will be treated as cheating and you will be subject to deletion. Violation of these simple rules may result in account deletion without prior notice and in some cases a permanent ban from the game. These rules may be changed with or without notice to the user!"


You can spin this anyway you want. And you can play the i didn't know card when the fact is how could you not know? Why would we add a war prep feature to the game if you could just hit retaliation and go to war? Why was there lots of conversations asking for a simple way to handle retaliations? And further more, when you join a nation you are at the mercy of your leaders stupid decisions.. If you leader starts a war and gets you all killed and i suppose to reinstate your state cause "you didn't know what your leader was doing"? NO! Every member since the dawn of this game is at the mercy of his/her leaders good or bad choices.. Don't like them, leave the nation!

One of your leaders admitted he knew it was shady but did it anyway. being able to go to war without first prepping for war is a loophole and people know this.

I'm sorry you feel that i "GAVE" the advantage to the other nation. I didn't do anything. I didn't see anyone from LoR complaining when they had the advantage of using the loophole.. ONLY when they get busted trying to be clever do i hear complaints.

The loophole is my fault for not getting it right the first time. I will take 100% full responsibility for that. But i will not take the blame for LoR's dumb choice to exploit it.. LoR's whole BS reasons for the retal is about as lame as my coding skills. Out of the 3 of LoRs leaders not one of you had the same story. There was no talk about doing any retals. Some of you got on, saw SLOB beat you to the punch and you found a "shady" way around it.

I have no problem EVER admitting when i am wrong. Hell i do it all the time. But i'm sorry, i am not wrong on this. If i felt for one minute that the 2 members who conspired this really didn't feel it was a loophole then i would have just erased what happened and fixed the loophole.

Again, i know 99% of LoR's members are very intelligent (yes pron your one of the 99%) enough to know that the retal feature was not a work around for the war declaration.

[BB]

you mean where you told me you thought it was where we could only hit one state with that? And not to mention the fact the you neglected to mention anything about it being illegal to use for war purposes (and as an admin i would expect you to have known this)

Devil I am not a game admin you seem to forget that matter and you never mentioned using it for war either.... And with being unfamiliar with the feature I was unaware that it effected whole nation and not just a particular state...

[Dogma]

Yes it is possible to kill a state in the retal function, but it must be a legitimate retal. If there had been an illegal attack on LoR states and you decided to kill that state, dead state, no problem. Come on, you found something you thought would be to your advantage and got caught, just man up and take it, you are still winning the war, big fat hairy deal. You just got mad because you didn't get FS, so what, no big deal.

[Devil]

Yes it is possible to kill a state in the retal function, but it must be a legitimate retal. If there had been an illegal attack on LoR states and you decided to kill that state, dead state, no problem. Come on, you found something you thought would be to your advantage and got caught, just man up and take it, you are still winning the war, big fat hairy deal. You just got mad because you didn't get FS, so what, no big deal.

does badmouthing a nation count for a retal? who is to say one is just? its perception. And we let you get the FS. Ask ali if you don't believe me, i told him that we would let you guys hit then crush you because that away we coulnt be the " bullys " who went around declaring on random nations.

So don't think we were mad, its just more fun to play with your food than to eat it as fast as you can