US passes Health care reform Bill

[Mr President]

Pres what you say would make sense if there were jobs for everyone, but that isn't the case. You're right that some people don't want to work, but there are plenty of people out there who would love to work but can't get a job as the country stands (this applies to the UK as much as the US) I don't know what the figures are over there, but here we have something like 2.5 million unemployed and 500,000 vacancies. Even if you could fill them all tomorrow it still leaves two million unemployed.

For all their rhetoric about creating jobs, it suits the government (and their backers in big business) to have a large pool of unemployed for the simple fact that it weakens unions. No one will dare strike if they can be sacked and easily replaced by someone on the dole queue.

Under the US system (pre-bill) uninsured people if they become ill, would be for all intents and purposes living in the dark ages when it came to healthcare. Also, the bill closes a lot of loopholes when it comes to insurance practices (such as making them take people with pre-existing conditions) that otherwise would have been ignored.

You should hardly worry about free handouts to banks or the unemployed when the US gives free handouts to other states, most notably Israel to the tune of 3 billion dollars a year. And what does Israel give the US in return? Stirring up trouble with settlement building, giving Bin Laden all the excuses he needs to launch terror attacks. It's quite possible that he would carry on even if Israel was cut off, but even if he did, you would be cutting out a key plank of his propaganda by letting Israel sink. If the US supported Britain to the extent it has supported Israel, we would likely still have an Empire today. Of course, no US politician will dare to defy the Israeli lobby, and this is at the core of the problem. Until you do, you will never see a foreign policy that puts America first.

Ask yourself this: what would really happen if the US stopped fighting those wars? would the Taliban invade the US? Would Bin Laden secretly travel to Washington and attack the White House? The US could easily cut defence spending by at least half, and still be #1 in the world militarily. A large portion of what you already spend goes into the pockets of various corporations and never to the services themselves. It is these same corporations that drive the US into wars it doesn't need to fight, purely to boost their profits. No country in the world today poses a serious threat to the US barring nukes, and no one will use them.

There is one other thing which you have overlooked concerning the costs of healthcare. Improving coverage will both improve morale in the workplace and drastically cut the amount of time lost to illness/injury, resulting in a significant boost to productivity. Not everyone without coverage is unemployed.

Great post Will. Today as i was driving i started thinking about my post and how i shouldn't have posted it till i knew more about the bill. I was infact doing what most people have done with this bill and that is speculate. But honestly that is all you can do seeing nobody is really breaking it all down for us. All we hear are the small parts and not the big picture.

Let me make my stance clear, I am all for health care. I feel healt care is a right and not a privilage. But i don't like being told that if i don't have health care then i have to pay a fine.. (or tax as the dems are calling it). It's like the seatbelt law, they force us to wear them cause they save lives.. like the state really cares if i live or die. All they want it the money that came with that law. The federal govt has no right to tell me that if i don't have something then i have to pay a fine. Might be why 13 states have already began to take the govt to court.

There could be jobs for everyone if they really wanted it to be. But as you stated, it helps weaken the unions as it is right now. But that is only one of many reasons. So for those of us with jobs and working hard to make a living, we now have to carry those who don't even try.

There are millions who wish they did have a job and are trying hard to get one. So as part of an unemployment benifit then offer healthcare till they do get a job. As long as people are trying then i have no problem with that. It's the ones who sit home and do nothing and get all the free stuff and are not even made to try.. Thats the ones that bother me.

And Will you are 100000% correct when you talk about how much we hand out to other nations and get nothing back. I was mad as can be when Katrina hit and not one other nation offered any type of aid.. But yet someone farts in a church in some 3rd world country and the US is expected to send billions.

I have more to say but i'll end here due to me being at work. I'll post more when i get home

[-Z-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tCAffMSWSzY

... way to intelligently contribute to the thread Disorder!




Z

[-Z-]

Great post Will. Today as i was driving i started thinking about my post and how i shouldn't have posted it till i knew more about the bill. I was infact doing what most people have done with this bill and that is speculate. But honestly that is all you can do seeing nobody is really breaking it all down for us. All we hear are the small parts and not the big picture.

Let me make my stance clear, I am all for health care. I feel healt care is a right and not a privilage. But i don't like being told that if i don't have health care then i have to pay a fine.. (or tax as the dems are calling it). It's like the seatbelt law, they force us to wear them cause they save lives.. like the state really cares if i live or die. All they want it the money that came with that law. The federal govt has no right to tell me that if i don't have something then i have to pay a fine. Might be why 13 states have already began to take the govt to court.

There could be jobs for everyone if they really wanted it to be. But as you stated, it helps weaken the unions as it is right now. But that is only one of many reasons. So for those of us with jobs and working hard to make a living, we now have to carry those who don't even try.

There are millions who wish they did have a job and are trying hard to get one. So as part of an unemployment benifit then offer healthcare till they do get a job. As long as people are trying then i have no problem with that. It's the ones who sit home and do nothing and get all the free stuff and are not even made to try.. Thats the ones that bother me.

And Will you are 100000% correct when you talk about how much we hand out to other nations and get nothing back. I was mad as can be when Katrina hit and not one other nation offered any type of aid.. But yet someone farts in a church in some 3rd world country and the US is expected to send billions.

I have more to say but i'll end here due to me being at work. I'll post more when i get home

I think I agree with all of what you have said Mr. Pres.

I'm for socialism(to a certain degree), but I am not for welfare. some people think they come with one another, but I see no need for that.

Some people such as Dogma might suggest that I am some socialism lazy liberal punk. But I do not support pure socialism. That would be as bad as communism, which did not work. In Canada we have more socialist policies than you have in America, however I feel that we could go even further. For example, health care is provided thru tax dollars, but eye care, and dental care is not. I feel we could include these.

Employment insurance benefits are, in my opinion, different than welfare, they are meant for short periods of time (where I am from, 6-9 months max I think) when people are in between jobs.

Welfare is not cool, it encourages people to procreate and birth whole new generations of welfare dependent citizens (possibly).

Walfare is simply incorrect.

I am not the most motivated person in the world, in fact I dislike my job, and most of the jobs I have had over the years, but I do them. I work hard all year round, unless I am in school.

That is how u make a living. Even animals need to hunt for their dinner, and build nests etc.

Its only natural to have to work for your survival.

Mr. P, you said everyone could have jobs... and that is true, however, with the innovations of the last 50 years, and the growing population, it is getting harder and harder to provide jobs for people.

we could take the machines out of the field that pick the stones, and there is a job for 10 people maybe that 1 man would have done b4 in a machine... but that costs money, and no one seems to want to pick rocks from fields all year long these days...

Its a quagmire.

I actually find it pretty sick how USA sends Israel 3Billion yearly directly to fund their military.

USA also send Israel other money and assistance aside from that. the 3B yealy amount goes directly to Israeli Military funding, and nothing else.

In reality I think It is closer to 4 or 5 Billion a year in total cash that is sent to israel, but the only firm number I am sure of is the 3B that goes Directly, and only to Military spending.

USA is so desperately messed up that even if a few of these issues were fixed, you would still be a long way from making the changes needed to repair your countries core structure.

I wish it was not so, and I am not trying to bash USA in this thread at all...

All the power to you in your attempts to make repairs.

In my opinion providing health care to your citizens is a step in the right direction.

now maybe U can stop sending all the citizens tax dollars to Israel, Quit invading countries with your military, cut your military spending in half, quit bailing out banks...

then U might be in shape to tackle a lot of the other smaller (yet still large) issues your country has.

Z

[totte]

in sweden if you go a gp it will cost you a small sum to be examined but if then you need say an xray or whatever your doc sends you there and it is free if you go to hospital in an emergency it´s free of charge.

dental is not free but it is subsidized same to some extent with medecin.

as for welfare we do have social security safety nets for people wich of course is to some extent abused.

if your in a union and have been it for a year and worked for 6-10 months i think it is your entitled to money for a ceartain period of time if you end up loseing your job.

most of this is of course covered thru taxes

we are a fairly socialistic country...

[Dogma]

Ok, I said I wasn't going to comment in this bill, however I keep getting called out in it, so I am going to defend myself.

Z, I do not think you are a lazy socialist and I never said I did so don't suppose you know my opinions on everything just because we have had some disagreements in the past.

I am NOT against some sort of help to those who cannot get their own helath care, but I am opposed to just giving away the farm. I am against the Federal Government requiring I buy some private anything. This congress has it in their minds that they have to power to tell everyone in this country that you WILL buy insurance or you will be fined. That is against the law.

Ours is a representative republic where the elected officials shall make laws that represent the people of their constituency. They are not. They are making thier own laws and rules so that they can become even more of an elitist group. Are they included in the health care bill they just passed? No, they voted that members of congress is opted out of it. SO, does that exude confidence in this health care plan? Doesn't for me.

I believe welfare, in its conception was a good program, but, it has been abused and played for so long we have generations of welfare families. There should be a limit to the length of time that a person can be put on welfare, just like unemployment benefits.

Just to make it perfectly clear, I live on government assistance because I am a disabled citizen. Those that can't work because of a health issue, should be taken care of. But an able bodied person, man or woman, white or black, should not be from cradle to grave just because that is the way the family has always been.

The attitude of entitlement in this country has gotten to the point that is is sickening. No one deserves anything from this country, just because they live here, or because 2oo years ago, someone in your family was done wrong, or just because of the color of your skin, or whatever reason the Dems want to pay people for. They do deserve the opportunity to provide for themselves and to succeed. we are entitled to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness as guaranteed by our constitution. No where in there does it say that if your pursuit of happiness is to lay on your *** and do nothing, we will take care of you.

The government just took over 1/6 of the economy and they have the power to dictate who gets what and when. THAT IS NOT THE FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT. They took over GM, THAT IS NOT THE FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT.

Help those who can't help themselves and offer a hand to those who need a temporary hand or leg up, but not help proliferate the welfare state that this bill is going to inevitably do.

This bill isn't the one to fix the problem. There may come a day when this country will find a program that is effective, but it isn't today.

[Disorder]

... way to intelligently contribute to the thread Disorder!




Z

What more can I say, you are always right, and Americans are always wrong.. besides, I was on my way out the door to work.. Living the American dream is very time consuming.

[-Z-]

What more can I say, you are always right, and Americans are always wrong.. besides, I was on my way out the door to work.. Living the American dream is very time consuming.

I'm not even sure what the american dream is...

Does it involve cocain and hookers?

if it involves working hard for your family and enjoying good times with friends, then I suppose I must be living it too.

I am not always right, just more often than not IMO.

Americans are obviously not always wrong, since there are 300M of you and there is only a 50% chance of being wrong for any individual. :-p

A good portion of Americans have simply been educated by a system that is corrupt, thus their opinions are skewed.

Z

[MAGGIO]

I was a little surprised by a few numbers like

40+ percent of all medical bill payed for were paid for by medicare and medicade.

40+ percent of all people who have insurance do so througth their employer

only a little over 10% of the american population is with out insurance

so if 40+ percent is paid for by medicare and medicade isnt the gov funding almost half of the medical bills in the country anyway?

Dude if you dont have insurance and have to go the the emergency room for something as little as a cough and as much as a catastrophic accident, and you cant pay for it, MY A## has to fork over the bill for you as well as the rest of us that are insured. So yah, maybe you do need to pay a fine or be more responsible as a citizen. Pretty sick of my rates trippling every half a decade.

also if 10+% of people dont have insurance now and are going to get it how do you figure I am going to have to wait in some huge line at the Dr. office? Its not like the patient load is going to increase by 20X. Maybe now, just maybe they wont be using the Emergency room as their primary care physician and I dont have to wait 6-8 hrs if I am really in trouble.

Im not saying its the best bill or the worst, but I agree with the previous statement that 99% of people talking sh## dont even know whats in teh bill and are just listening and worse yet repeating the hype they have been spoon fed.

Also I think that the increase in production in the economy was a big point with less people taking less time off work because they didnt wait until their health problems spun out of control due to not being insured. Crap do you realize how much Facebook and the classic Windows Solitare costs the country's economy each year in lost production and productivity .

[MAGGIO]

I see Dogma you are thrilled about this bill. I have Kaiser Perminente and my wife and I pay about 600 per month for our insurance. What kind of insurance do you have and how much does it cost?

[Dogma]

I see Dogma you are thrilled about this bill. I have Kaiser Perminente and my wife and I pay about 600 per month for our insurance. What kind of insurance do you have and how much does it cost?

I already stated this.

Just to make it perfectly clear, I live on government assistance because I am a disabled citizen. Those that can't work because of a health issue, should be taken care of. But an able bodied person, man or woman, white or black, should not be from cradle to grave just because that is the way the family has always been.

I am on Medicare and I do pay a premium for it every month.