Anti-Intellectual Atheism

[Max Logan]

After reading it a few times - I'm pretty sure your argument is essentially:

1. Miracles cannot happen.
2. The bible contains stories about miracles.
3. Therefore the bible is not historical.

Would you agree that this is your argument Max?

No, again you don`t see the point. You take the most banal of what you see and present it to make the other person look bad. Nice way to debate, really, you must`ve taken one of those training with pron!

Read those posts again, and when you WANT to debate, replay again

[Max Logan]

I'm not saying that you need God in order to live morally. Christianity teaches that God has written morality on the hearts of men.

Don't misunderstand what I am saying here: Without God it doesn't make sense to live morality. Everyone knows the phrase "You ought not kill your neighbor" is true - the question is why is it true? My contention is that without God - it cannot be true, because ultimately it matters not. If I kill him or not, the universe will be in the same place in the end. It doesn't matter whether humans continue to survive or not - the universe is going to die either way. It doesn't matter if the community remains stable or not - the universe is going to die either way.

We all know right and wrong - but without the belief of God, you have a huge hole in your rational foundation.

no. God itself is irrational. as supernatural by definition is irrational and illogical.

without belief in god and dogmatic we keep an open mind and perception and are not clouded by religious disbelief

[jasonlfunk]

Max, I am trying to help you. I am trying to break your argument into a logical structure instead of in rant form.

Here is how I came to your argument:

Do we ought to believe every sect out there? NO! We base our belief on logic. And logic says- you die, you stay dead. You need evidence for that? Go to the graveyard and dig someone out and show me him! Wanna bet he`s gonna be stinking deadish?

I understand you to be saying here that it is illogical to think resurrections happen - why because when people die, they stay dead. The broader point that you are alluding to is that there are certain laws that nature follows and they do not operate apart from those rules. This is equivalent to saying that miracle cannot happen.

'Eyewitnesses' in 1st century are not the most reliable sorts. esp religious fanatics.

The only reason that I can think of for you to thinking these eyewitnesses are not reliable is that they are claiming things happened that you think cannot happen. (if you have other reasons - please let me know). I would bet you would consider them reliable if they did not speak of healings, resurrections, etc.

There is NO evidence that you can show me that Jesus walked the earth after he was crucified. And no Bible doesn`t count as an evidence. Case closed.

The only support that I can see you have to discount the bible is given above - that miracles cannot happen.

My evidence to back up Churches power struggle? Lmao! You need to read more history then you do! Middle age, witch hunt, indulgence selling, 'sin release', conspiracies, blackmail, extort, murder, Jesuits, pop deaths, holy wars... lmao, evidence.

No one is claiming that the church has abused it's power. But the historicity of the bible has nothing to do with it.

Therefore --

1. Miracles cannot happen.
2. The bible contains stories about miracles.
3. Therefore the bible is not historical.

Please show me where I error. I think very structured and logically, and it helps me (and discussions) when arguments are structured. Let's make that our goal for now - it will clear up a lot.

[jasonlfunk]

no. God itself is irrational. as supernatural by definition is irrational and illogical.

without belief in god and dogmatic we keep an open mind and perception and are not clouded by religious disbelief

You do know that you completely didn't respond to my post.

I said (in summary): God is necessary in order to make sense of morality.
You said in response (in summary): No because God doesn't exist.

That isn't an valid response - for God's existence or non-existence is not relevant to whether God is necessary in order to make sense of morality.

And no- supernatural by definition is not irrational or illogical. You can certainty think is is irrational - but it not by definition. If you do start with the definition of supernatural as irrational - then any further debate is useless, because you start at your conclusion.

[jasonlfunk]

As I said, in the 1st or one of the first posts I already said, but ok, I`ll repeat, as your don`t even look at the posts I made just accuse me of not giving answers.

I believe in the idea or Christianity. I`m Catholic.
I don`t believe in God as supernatural entity, I don`t believe Jesus rose from the dead, I don`t believe he walked on water.
I believe in the idea of compassion, equality and unity. Thats what I believe. It doesn`t take supernatural to believe in the cause. People need ideas, not idols.

In what sense are you catholic? While you may agree with some of the values of the church, you seem to disagree with the core creeds and dogmas. There are plenty of other belief systems that are much closer to yours.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day He rose again.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of Saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. AMEN.

You aren't actually Catholic if you don't agree with this creed - whether you call yourself one or not.

[pron]

I believe in the idea or Christianity. I`m Catholic.

So, are you catholic for the human side of helping another and not for the whole God thing then?

I don`t believe in God as supernatural entity, I don`t believe Jesus rose from the dead, I don`t believe he walked on water.

Ok, I've gathered this from your posts. Now could you flesh this out a little bit? Is it because you believe Science has disproven the Supernatural and that is why God can't exist? Or some other reason? And if it is science, which scientific findings prompted you to not believe in the supernatural?

I believe in the idea of compassion, equality and unity. Thats what I believe. It doesn`t take supernatural to believe in the cause. People need ideas, not idols.

I also believe in these things, however, I believe that Jesus was the personification of these ideas and try to live a life like his. Someone can say "live by compassion" but until I see it in action, I would have no idea what that would look like. It's good though that we agree on living by those ideals, even if we don't stand together on where those ideals come from.

[Max Logan]

Max, I am trying to help you. I am trying to break your argument into a logical structure instead of in rant form.

Here is how I came to your argument:

I understand you to be saying here that it is illogical to think resurrections happen - why because when people die, they stay dead. The broader point that you are alluding to is that there are certain laws that nature follows and they do not operate apart from those rules. This is equivalent to saying that miracle cannot happen.


The only reason that I can think of for you to thinking these eyewitnesses are not reliable is that they are claiming things happened that you think cannot happen. (if you have other reasons - please let me know). I would bet you would consider them reliable if they did not speak of healings, resurrections, etc.


The only support that I can see you have to discount the bible is given above - that miracles cannot happen.


No one is claiming that the church has abused it's power. But the historicity of the bible has nothing to do with it.

Therefore --

1. Miracles cannot happen.
2. The bible contains stories about miracles.
3. Therefore the bible is not historical.

Please show me where I error. I think very structured and logically, and it helps me (and discussions) when arguments are structured. Let's make that our goal for now - it will clear up a lot.

You`re not even making any arguments yourself, so you can`t possible help me. You have one argument - Bible. You claim it to be true without evidence, so until you present evidence thats its true, don`t bother making assumption about it!

[Max Logan]

You do know that you completely didn't respond to my post.

I said (in summary): God is necessary in order to make sense of morality.
You said in response (in summary): No because God doesn't exist.

That isn't an valid response - for God's existence or non-existence is not relevant to whether God is necessary in order to make sense of morality.

And no- supernatural by definition is not irrational or illogical. You can certainty think is is irrational - but it not by definition. If you do start with the definition of supernatural as irrational - then any further debate is useless, because you start at your conclusion.

Sorry, again you just picked a line and commented it without looking at the idea as whole. More groundless statements from you.

God is NOT necessary! We did fine without him! Before Christianity we had no idea of this 'God' and then suddenly we credit him for everything. Meh! Thats weak from you!

[Max Logan]

In what sense are you catholic? While you may agree with some of the values of the church, you seem to disagree with the core creeds and dogmas. There are plenty of other belief systems that are much closer to yours.

You aren't actually Catholic if you don't agree with this creed - whether you call yourself one or not.

Religion and Belief has nothing to do with God.

And once more you misuse my words- I said O don`t believe in God and Jesus miracles and supernatural and NOT that I find the dogmatics and creeds wrong.

Sorry, but the way you ARGUE whos how insecure you are in your own belief and try to prove it right by misusing every post of mine.

Lame

[Max Logan]

So, are you catholic for the human side of helping another and not for the whole God thing then?

Ok, I've gathered this from your posts. Now could you flesh this out a little bit? Is it because you believe Science has disproven the Supernatural and that is why God can't exist? Or some other reason? And if it is science, which scientific findings prompted you to not believe in the supernatural?

I also believe in these things, however, I believe that Jesus was the personification of these ideas and try to live a life like his. Someone can say "live by compassion" but until I see it in action, I would have no idea what that would look like. It's good though that we agree on living by those ideals, even if we don't stand together on where those ideals come from.

Science-education