Jesus: The Myth "gospels" of Mark Mathew, Luke, and John

[-Z-]

I DENY THE HOLY SPIRIT.


I am NOT afraid.

Z

[SmarT]

yes i always wonder why people denie the changes of slavery in this world, but take it in the spiritual.

[SmarT]

ive said alot worse then that before Z

[-Z-]

I am waiting for someone to address my question about Dogma.

Z

[Dogma]

Z, I will be glad to "discuss" this with you as a non practicing Catholic and give youmy views,. However I would prefer to do so in a non combative debate, where I will not judge your beliefs and I ask that you not judge mine. I have been raisedCatholic, I was baptized, married and will probebly be buried Catholic. Do I believe uncatagorically in all thierr teachings, no, but I choose to foolw what I was raised in, so we can discuss. but, not to night, I am going for a drink. I will reply upon my return.

[-Z-]

Z, I will be glad to "discuss" this with you as a non practicing Catholic and give youmy views,. However I would prefer to do so in a non combative debate, where I will not judge your beliefs and I ask that you not judge mine. I have been raisedCatholic, I was baptized, married and will probebly be buried Catholic. Do I believe uncatagorically in all thierr teachings, no, but I choose to foolw what I was raised in, so we can discuss. but, not to night, I am going for a drink. I will reply upon my return.

Sounds good.

Its a sensitive subject for me, as like I said I have been Lied to.

1ST please address my question about Dogma, and why it is that no one questions religious dogma, but all other dogmas are questioned?


(sorry for my aggression, it just pushes my buttons when people try to tell me how to live, tell me I am going to burn in hell and such, when I live a good life, and I do not hurt people)

Z

[pron]

Well lets begin to discuss Dogma.

Why is it that Religion is the only area that people tolerate Dogma completely uncritically?

To deny that the hollucost happened, or to assert that u know u are in diolague with extra terestrials is pretty much synonomus with craziness in our culture.

It is so because we challenge people when they believe things strongly without evidence, or in contradiction to a mountain of evidence.

except on faith.

Why?

is it that faith is not important?

Z

Sorry Z--if you see my post in the other thread, you might understand why it took so long to reply .

Let me ask you this, do you believe that to be Christian is to believe in Dogma uncritically? I really don't. In fact, I question everything that is put in front of me, and I believe I become a stronger Christian because of it. It is too bad that people can't get past the dogma stage of Christianity because there is a wellspring of things to learn outside of it. Unfortunately, many people only see religion for what they can get out of it, and are too afraid to challenge it for fear of losing what they get out of it.

It seems that you attribute Faith to not having evidence. I would disagree with this statement. Many times I have to have faith without evidence. Faith in some things in the Bible sure. However, I need no more evidence then the way that God has acted within my own life for me to believe. That may not be a good enough answer for someone that doesn't understand what I've been through, and I understand that. However, I think that the only way to have evidence for faith is to experience God.

Let me know what you think.

Edit: It should be noted that questioning Dogma isn't for everyone Z. Sometimes, something that is good for one person, is not good for another, and recognizing that people are in different places when it comes to their faith and religion is a step in the right direction when talking about what people need to do to bring themselves closer to God. Sometimes, it's good for a person to not question, but just believe, follow, and serve.

[-Z-]

Sorry Z--if you see my post in the other thread, you might understand why it took so long to reply .

Let me ask you this, do you believe that to be Christian is to believe in Dogma uncritically? I really don't. In fact, I question everything that is put in front of me, and I believe I become a stronger Christian because of it. It is too bad that people can't get past the dogma stage of Christianity because there is a wellspring of things to learn outside of it. Unfortunately, many people only see religion for what they can get out of it, and are too afraid to challenge it for fear of losing what they get out of it.

It seems that you attribute Faith to not having evidence. I would disagree with this statement. Many times I have to have faith without evidence. Faith in some things in the Bible sure. However, I need no more evidence then the way that God has acted within my own life for me to believe. That may not be a good enough answer for someone that doesn't understand what I've been through, and I understand that. However, I think that the only way to have evidence for faith is to experience God.

Let me know what you think.

I have yet to check the other thread.

This is why religion is a personal thing:

concerning faith; any sort of evidence that can be seen or held in fact and studied in reality, then eliminates the element of faith.

if something is there in front of you: like you see an apple on the table.

the apple is there. U do not need faith to know it is there, everyone can agree that it is there, even if u are blind u can touch it and realize it is there.

if things happen in a persons life that lead him/or her to have faith that god exists, then this is something personal, as what you experience, only you truly can comprehend as you do.

Faith by definition is to believe in something without evidence based in reality, that is factual evidence. (one might have evidence based on feelings, dreams, personal ocurances, but this is not factual evidence)

Pron I do think that we are on the same level here in some ways.

To answer your question... what does it mean to be christian... well see I have nothing against a person that would call themselves christian... What bothers me is the bible... the dogma.

I was taught (by the church) that to be christian is to have faith in god, the holy spirit, and the son of god.

If I was to deny the existence of the holy spirit I would go to Hell when I died, for eternity.

They actually attempted to get me to believe this. that If i simply thought that maybe the spirit in my was not holy, and that it was my parents who gave me life and vitality, that I would be damded.

and so to be Catholic i was suppose to believe in the bible, and so forth.

so in the catholic religion where I come from, Ontario Canada (and according to the bible) yes, one must follow the doctrine of the bible to be a christian.

u see to deny the holy spirit is the only unforgivable sin.

when we begin to think about it... we have no more evidence that the holy spirit exists than we do that unicorns exist.

But now we have just broken the biggest rule, the greatest crime in fudamentalist christianity:

TO THINK!

fun·da·men·tal·ism
–noun
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a movement in American Protestantism that arose in the early part of the 20th century in reaction to modernism and that stresses the infallibility of the Bible not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record, holding as essential to Christian faith belief in such doctrines as the creation of the world, the virgin birth, physical resurrection, atonement by the sacrificial death of Christ, and the Second Coming.

This is classic christian doctrine, perhaps not the way you see it Pron, but this is how it is taught in the bible.


Concerning religious dogma once again:

If you are trying to get a medical degree, and you have all kinds of ideas about human health that can not be substantiated by evidence, and you talk about your own strong convictions, educe any reasons for them; not only will you not get your degree, you are essentially laughed out of the room.

Is this wrong for people to laugh at you about this?

no

because peoples Lives depend on it.



Now i did my best to answer your question, could you please address my original question concerning why it is that religious dogma is not questioned, while all else is?

Z

[Kamran]

im going to get involved into this debate but wanted to state this, i was a Christian, i too beleive the stories i was told i too questioned the logic of this religion and other around but alot of it was just bull,so i became a Athiest and now am a Muslim

[pron]

I have yet to check the other thread.

Check the other thread. I spent a lot of time on it.

This is why religion is a personal thing:

Religion is not a personal thing. Faith is a personal thing, and religion is a shared community understanding of Faith.

concerning faith; any sort of evidence that can be seen or held in fact and studied in reality, then eliminates the element of faith.

if something is there in front of you: like you see an apple on the table.

the apple is there. U do not need faith to know it is there, everyone can agree that it is there, even if u are blind u can touch it and realize it is there.

if things happen in a persons life that lead him/or her to have faith that god exists, then this is something personal, as what you experience, only you truly can comprehend as you do.

Faith by definition is to believe in something without evidence based in reality, that is factual evidence. (one might have evidence based on feelings, dreams, personal ocurances, but this is not factual evidence)

Pron I do think that we are on the same level here in some ways.

Agreed. Although, I can have faith in someone else's view of God. IE--if someone understands God in a way I don't understand God, I can have faith in that person's understanding, and attribute it to my own faith. Here is where Faith becomes more than just a personal thing; it becomes a religion.

To answer your question... what does it mean to be christian... well see I have nothing against a person that would call themselves christian... What bothers me is the bible... the dogma.

There were Christians for 300 years before there was ever a Bible as we know it or the Dogma as we know it.

I was taught (by the church) that to be christian is to have faith in god, the holy spirit, and the son of god.

If I was to deny the existence of the holy spirit I would go to Hell when I died, for eternity.

They actually attempted to get me to believe this. that If i simply thought that maybe the spirit in my was not holy, and that it was my parents who gave me life and vitality, that I would be damded.

and so to be Catholic i was suppose to believe in the bible, and so forth.

so in the catholic religion where I come from, Ontario Canada (and according to the bible) yes, one must follow the doctrine of the bible to be a christian.

A few flaws in either your reasoning here, or more likely the people that gave you this reasoning.

1. To be a Christian means you believe that Jesus was the Incarnation of God in this world. IE--the Son of God. As a Christian, you would believe that Jesus is then the way to receive salvation. Upon believing these things, you would receive the Holy spirit who begins a renewal process within you that makes you a) more Christ-like in this life, and b) Ultimate Renewal after this life has ended.

2. Mark 3: 28-29. Jesus speaking. "I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

Within the context of this passage, which might take about 20 mins to explain, Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to believe that Christ is not who He says He is.

Say what you want about the Holy Spirit, I can't give you logical arguments to prove that the HS exists. One day we'll both know for sure though ya?

u see to deny the holy spirit is the only unforgivable sin.

See above point #2.

when we begin to think about it... we have no more evidence that the holy spirit exists than we do that unicorns exist.

Agreed. But just because I don't have evidence, doesn't mean there isn't evidence out there. There wasn't evidence atoms existed until we had an electron microscope to see them.

But now we have just broken the biggest rule, the greatest crime in fudamentalist christianity:

TO THINK!

fun·da·men·tal·ism
–noun
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a movement in American Protestantism that arose in the early part of the 20th century in reaction to modernism and that stresses the infallibility of the Bible not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record, holding as essential to Christian faith belief in such doctrines as the creation of the world, the virgin birth, physical resurrection, atonement by the sacrificial death of Christ, and the Second Coming.

yea--I really am not a fundamentalist, or fundie as I call them. They really kill the whole being a Christian thing for me. However, there is a place for them. Realize the keywords in your definition: A movement, not The movement.

This is classic christian doctrine, perhaps not the way you see it Pron, but this is how it is taught in the bible.

It's not really classical Christian Doctrine, as it originated in the 20th Century.
And it's not how it's taught in the Bible, it's how it's taught in some churches. I believe that if people are stressing this fundamentalism over aspects of Jesus' ministry, they're missing out on the big idea of being a Christian.

Concerning religious dogma once again:

If you are trying to get a medical degree, and you have all kinds of ideas about human health that can not be substantiated by evidence, and you talk about your own strong convictions, educe any reasons for them; not only will you not get your degree, you are essentially laughed out of the room.

Is this wrong for people to laugh at you about this?

no

because peoples Lives depend on it.

Agreed. However, it's not an exact parallel. In Religion, you're dealing with an Infinite Mystery in this thing known as God. God is Love. But what kind of Love? How much Love is this God of Love? Can you define it for me or show me evidence of the amount of Love God is?

For me, the whole evidence argument is tough to argue against. Of course I'm going to have a tough time proving God, because God is a mystery even to me! But I have seen bits and pieces of God. Some in the Bible. Some in my own life. Some in the lives of others. Some in Church. Some in Dogma. The reality is, there will be no compelling argument intellectually that will satisfy anybody looking for an intellectual answer. Unless they're completely ignorant on many issues--but then how intellectual are they?

The only thing I can say is, I do believe a day will come when we'll have all the evidence we need. That's all I can rest on. For your analogy, it's the day when that person's intuition about medical things is proven. I suppose you could look at every inventor within the past 2000 years of medicine, and they would say there was a time when they were laughed out of the room. Cure polio? Ha. A vaccine? Ha. Mold cures people's sickness? HA. I do believe time will tell on this one.

Now i did my best to answer your question, could you please address my original question concerning why it is that religious dogma is not questioned, while all else is?

Z

I think the best answer to this question is that there are people that question Dogma, and it's an ok thing to do. The biggest problem is when people start defending their dogma over being a Christian. When they defend their Dogma, they start defending their religion and stop defending their faith. I think you're stereotyping Christians here, and it's an unfair question to ask .

I question my religious Dogma. I'm a Christian. I think people are too afraid to question their own Dogma, because they're afraid that they'll lose the God they've come to know and that's a scary thing. I have no idea why churches encourage being afraid. When I become a pastor, I will encourage those that can handle this change to question their Dogma, and I will try to bring people to an understanding that questioning does not equal blasphemy. That's my best answer to your question.