Massive Economics Thread

[ooga booga]

that credit card issue was a perfect example about why this crap is so messed up, and why i am so pissed off. I didnt over purchase crap and get a house on a 100% interest loan (arm) like all of these jerk offs did, and now that I want to go buy a house and I have the money lined up I cant get the same loan I should be able to get, because everyone is tightening up the credit....this is bs.

Ask any financial expert about why we are so screwed....there are many reasons, but the NUMBER ONE reason is the value of the american dollar and how it has gone down so much. The NUMBER ONE reason it is so low is because the US is in history debt to other countries like CHINA. WHOS FAULT IS THAT!? Dont accuse me of playing the blame game, why would bush even care about me, he is rich, why would McCain care about me he is worth 100M you think he cares. Even if he looses half he still have 50M. Obamam is worth 1M i think he is gonna care if he looses half dont you.

Since the terror alert warning system has been up it has never dropped below level 3. Guess what guys...its allways been a level 3 even before 911.

Yah we gotta spend a little bit of money to prevent nuclear attacks Mr P., but i dout the poor *** Iraqis got what it takes... I dout we are even spending 10% of the money on fighting real terrorists over there. We have dug ourselves deep over there, and dont have enough money to even fight terror effectively in other regeons of the world.

I wonder what we are spending in afganstan, vs iraq? You know what it doesnt even matter because al queda is everywere! They are were we are not!

WE ARE LOOSING THIS WAR. We live in terror, our money is worth crap, people are starving, loosing jobs, becoming less educated, business are failing, retirement funds are drying up, oil prices are up.

Osama bin Laden is no dumb ***, he is winning this fight. Not through casualties, but through the effects of terror. He killed a few thousand, 6 years later he is effecting millions of americans, and billions of dollars. He has the right to take full credit for his sucess. It is almost like he knew exactly what Bush would do.

You said it yourself, you are not a Financial Expert. The Number #1 reason is not because of the U.S. dollar's value. We have been in debt for how many years? These big companies borrowed more money then they could afford. The housing market stalled, mortgages foreclosed, and the big companies didn't have the money to pay back their big loans they had borrowed, and that is why this crisis happened. The SEC didn't monitor anything and do it's job. The companies took these big risks and screwed themselves. This could have been avoided. It was NOT the fault of the war on terror. You liberals need to get your heads out of your butts. You guys can't wait to start pointing fingers and start the blame game. And you know what? You liberals do this on EVERY issue. You wonder why half the country has stopped listening to the pointless rants.

[Rassputtin]

I was going to quote you guys, but then it became too much of a burden to quote everyone. So I'll respond to the general commonalities I've read.

The economic recession is due specifically to the president. Any statement or belief in that train of thought is idiotic.

The president does not set interest rates. The president does not decide to save or not save companies. The president does not pass bills, or repeal laws that allow companies to make bad decisions. The PRESIDENT did not vote on war in Iraq. The president does not do alot of the things that uneducated individuals assume the president has the power and full authority to do. There is a reason the United States government is a 3 branch government of which contained is the congress. I don't care which party your for, NO president votes enough times in congress to get things passed or repealed. Seriously think about what you say before you say it.

Secondly I'll comment on the side note about Mac and Bam. Niether is going to do what they say they will do. Niether has the authority to do what they say they are gonna do. (please see above paragraph). The reality is that both of these candidates will remain within party lines. Obama's votes are what 90% along the line. In truth you don't get nominated as a party contestant by the party for the biggest office in the country, without being a "company man" for the party. Both contestants are more of the same. And you can't even say more of the same "bush" or "clinton". Its further and deeper than that. Its a question of do you want more of the same Rep policies or more of the same Dem policies.

Seriously you think McCain would get the nod from republicans if he was gonna come out and make abortion legal? Not likely chief.

Now to the actual economic situation that is being discussed.

Bottom line - Companies and people are greedy. Greed causes individuals and the corporate entities they represent to engage in bad decisions. Bad decisions are different than simply taking risks. Risks can be..... calculated to a certain extent in an attempt to minimize risk versus reward. But bad decisions are those where the risk far outshines the potential reward for the endeavor.

Capitalism and our economy is a giant circle. It is one of the easiest places to see that every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Global variables hit each market and cause an effect. Take the opec. Oil costs increased. Consumer dollars devoted to that product were increased. Decreasing the avialable dollars for use in other markets and products. So those markets and products suffer. The suffering of those markets and products affect other markets and products and before you know it, they are all suffering.

When the economy recesses, people tighten their pocketbooks, this causes business to tighten thier pocketbooks, no longer lendign money to eachother or consumers. Consumers and business without access to credit in an economy that is more or less based on credit makes for tough times. Those tought times turn into really tough times when business start closing. The problem is then compouned by unemployment and layoffs, dividend cuts and so forth.

Making the purse strings even tighter. Business's and consumers can't get new credit. The failing economy causes consumers to be unable to pay their stupid option and subprime loans causing huge debt carriers like WAMU to falter.

I mean really they claimed a 3 billion second-quarter loss. I think TNova is right. The quicker the crumbling happens teh quicker the debree can be cleared and a sturdier foundation then built upon.

The scariest thing I thought about during this thing, particularly today with WAMU, was that had JP not bought the assets, had no one bought the assets and WAMU straigth crumbles, the FDIC then has to shell out the cash for the customers.

Problem is had they had to do that the FDIC would then be depleted. So then what happens if another goes belly up, where do the businesss's adn citizens get their money from.... if the FDIC is empty. Imagine the turmoil the sceanrio woudl casue.

[Dogma]

EXCELLENT post Rass. Rep for you



I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG.

Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a 'We Deserve It Dividend'.

To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bonafide U.S. Citizens 18+.

Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up..

So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billon that equals $425,000.00.

My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a 'We Deserve It Dividend'.

Of course, it would NOT be tax free.

So let's assume a tax rate of 30%.

Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes.

That sends $25,500,000,000 right back to Uncle Sam.

But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket.

A husband and wife have $595,000.00.

What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family?

Pay off your mortgage - housing crisis solved.
Repay college loans - what a great boost to new grads
Put away money for college - it'll be there
Save in a bank - create money to loan to entrepreneurs.
Buy a new car - create jobs
Invest in the market - capital drives growth
Pay for your parent's medical insurance - health care improves
Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean - or else

Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+ including the folks who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company that is cutting back, and of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces.

If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it...instead of trickling out a puny $1000.00 ( 'vote buy' ) economic incentive that is being proposed by one of our candidates for President.

If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every adult U S Citizen 18+!

As for AIG - liquidate it.
Sell off its parts.

Let American General go back to being American General. Sell off the real estate.
Let the private sector bargain hunters cut it up and clean it up.

Here's my rationale. We deserve it and AIG doesn't.

Sure it's a crazy idea that can 'never work.'

But can you imagine the Coast-To-Coast Block Party!

How do you spell Economic Boom?

I trust my fellow adult Americans to know how to use the $85 Billion 'We Deserve It Dividend' more than I do the geniuses at AIG or in Washington DC .

And remember, The Family plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because $25.5 Billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam. Talk about a stimulus package!

[Disorder]

EXCELLENT post Rass. Rep for you



I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG.

Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a 'We Deserve It Dividend'.

To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bonafide U.S. Citizens 18+.

Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up..

So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billon that equals $425,000.00.

My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a 'We Deserve It Dividend'.

Of course, it would NOT be tax free.

So let's assume a tax rate of 30%.

Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes.

That sends $25,500,000,000 right back to Uncle Sam.

But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket.

A husband and wife have $595,000.00.

What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family?

Pay off your mortgage - housing crisis solved.
Repay college loans - what a great boost to new grads
Put away money for college - it'll be there
Save in a bank - create money to loan to entrepreneurs.
Buy a new car - create jobs
Invest in the market - capital drives growth
Pay for your parent's medical insurance - health care improves
Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean - or else

Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+ including the folks who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company that is cutting back, and of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces.

If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it...instead of trickling out a puny $1000.00 ( 'vote buy' ) economic incentive that is being proposed by one of our candidates for President.

If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every adult U S Citizen 18+!

As for AIG - liquidate it.
Sell off its parts.

Let American General go back to being American General. Sell off the real estate.
Let the private sector bargain hunters cut it up and clean it up.

Here's my rationale. We deserve it and AIG doesn't.

Sure it's a crazy idea that can 'never work.'

But can you imagine the Coast-To-Coast Block Party!

How do you spell Economic Boom?

I trust my fellow adult Americans to know how to use the $85 Billion 'We Deserve It Dividend' more than I do the geniuses at AIG or in Washington DC .

And remember, The Family plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because $25.5 Billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam. Talk about a stimulus package!

Great idea in my opinion.. but the way they are doing it, I bet you the CEO's and decision makers are going to be bathing in cash as they already are.. sad sad situation.

[Mr President]

Wamu is no more.. JP Morgan has bought them out..

[Dogma]

Wamu is no more.. JP Morgan has bought them out..

The woman that used to be on Match Game?

[-Z-]

$85 Billion 'We Deserve It Dividend'


a very good idea.

1st thing i have heard dogma say that I agree with in a long time.

Z

[KLL]

I thought the Era of Investment Banking was over. I heard it on BNN the other day, how new regulations would basically turn them into commercial banks like how we have here in Canada.

Example: CIBC (commercial), and CIBC WorldMarkets (investment) are two branches of the same company, so thus the investment branch cannot go off and do its own thing.

Or am I completely off the mark?

thats what its gonna look like for the big banks anyway.. no idea wher ML, MS or GS are gonna get retail banking arms from..
altho i knwo that GS at least does do private banking


but the aera of investmetn banks is not over.
The era of investment banks owning retail banks is beginnign and the era of smaller investment banks. People foroget that ther eis still hundereds of smaller independan investment banks around.

Ask any financial expert about why we are so screwed....there are many reasons, but the NUMBER ONE reason is the value of the american dollar and how it has gone down so much. The NUMBER ONE reason it is so low is because the US is in history debt to other countries like CHINA. WHOS FAULT IS THAT!?

Wal Mart. Consumer. You people.

Osama bin Laden is no dumb ***, he is winning this fight. Not through casualties, but through the effects of terror. He killed a few thousand, 6 years later he is effecting millions of americans, and billions of dollars. He has the right to take full credit for his sucess. It is almost like he knew exactly what Bush would do.

Wow, did you jsut blme the credit cruch on bin laden?

[MAGGIO]

Good points Ras.

I wish Dogma

Yes KLL this could be considered a spin off of terror and the effects of terror IMO.

[Tnova]

I thought the Era of Investment Banking was over. I heard it on BNN the other day, how new regulations would basically turn them into commercial banks like how we have here in Canada.

Example: CIBC (commercial), and CIBC WorldMarkets (investment) are two branches of the same company, so thus the investment branch cannot go off and do its own thing.

Or am I completely off the mark?

Several Large Investment Banks applied to the Fed, and was accepted, to be declared as Bank Holding companies. Even the strongest of the Investment Banks, ones who have done the most marking down, are still struggling with liquidity. This will give them access to the Temporary borrowing window with the Fed, it also mean that they will be regulated like a bank. I just worry there are going to be unintended consequences from this action.

I read the other day where the world wide derivative market is 544 Trillion dollars, and has grown tremendously with in the past few years. Finacial Companies have enjoyed very nice gains in the last 4 years, but there is alot of glut there. We can expect some credit contraction, and i think it is a quite normal process in the ebs and flows of any economy.

There are strong and smart companies ready to pounce on dead companies who tried to play the system with debt and got played. There is going to be some pain for the whole world going forward, it is just a matter of how long do you want your pain. Governments needs to focus on tangible things, not i hope this 700B psychological trick works, like infrastructure and invest in companies/technologies that can create real jobs. Everything will come out on the back end okay if they do that.