Terrorist/Suicide List

[Rassputtin]

I was once told that i can't please everyone even no matter how hard i try. Seems each set i learn this more and more.

Or more appropriately, "you can't please all the people all the time" - Bob Marley.

Your and his are both very true. No arguement there.

I guess i would need you to fill me in a bit more by what some of these things are, but pretty much every change i have made, about 95% of the people like it.

Which is why 95% of the time I kept my mouth shut, and made no negative comments about what is taking place.... no negative comments on the patriot act thread, and no comments at all on the sanctions thread............

Also, if you read in the Patriot act you would have seen where i said this is a quick fix. I'm sorry i don't have lots of free days to sit and re write the whole attack, GB, and a few other codes to prevent suiciding at this time. And i'm sorry, but even if i did do it, there will still be a way around it and then people would be on here complaining about that. So i simply came up with this quick fix to help "slow it down" some.

You don't need to apologize for not having "full time" hours worth of time to re-write code. No one expects you to. When the game pays you full time wages then maybe people will expect you to put full time hours into its development. Make no mistake about that. I don't think anyone here will argue that you have displayed a "lack" of effort.

However keep in mind that there are other bright minds here that can help get things done. Myself amongst the many that are here that can code, and could and probably would help.

I don't see a whole lot of code posting and I removed the code I posted, but you are wrong that there will always be a way around it.

http://forums.nation-wars.com/showthread.php?t=3611 Is gone now cause I deleted everything but,

one of the key elements was a reverse readiness loss based on strength percentage per unit above 50. Meaning if any units military strength was 50% or more of your total military strength it reduced your readiness by a reverse percentage.

so if 90% of your total military strength is ships, your attacking at 10% readiness, forcing a balanced state with balanced units while still providing the freedom to choose which units to carry.

If anyone can come up with a way around that, so a suicider will be able to go 100% jets to suicide on a top state attacking at 0% readiness I'm all ears........? And if you ask me, forcing people to play smart, and eliminating suiciding is much better then enabling them to play stupid, still allowing suiciding but babysitting it.

It also provided many other things, already coded and ready for testing. My point is, others can help. You do have some time, but that time is spent on patriot act and sanctions..... basically i personally disagree with priority levels of whats being worked on, fixed and implemented.

But hey, its not my game.............. its yours. So like I said its my opinion so 95% of the time, particularly in the threads where you announce what your doing or adding, I dont' say anything, because when it comes down to it. Its your decision not mine, and if you got nothing nice to say.......

And honestly, advertising that something would be done will also help limit the suicides.

Indeed, it would help a bit.

Do you really think i want to spend even more time sitting here looking through attacks and past notes to try and figure out if it's a suicide or not? Sorry, i would rather be spending my time more wisely. And i'm sure Tnova would too.

I've never wanted either of you to have to....... if your remember I'm against admins having to waste time manually doing something. The whole point of my code change arguement.

I'm willing to bet that adding an array or a few lines of code to the attack scripts and testing them would take just as much time or less as adding terrorist systems and sanctions and manually reviewing potential suicides.

Rass like 2 sets ago you sent me a PM asking if anything was going to be done about suiciding. So here i went and did something to help out, and your still not happy.. In fact your "disgusted". So i guess there really is nothing i can do to please you.

Right and I said its good to see a step in the right direction when you posted the patriot act. But I'm a firm believer in do it until its done. You said yourself the patriot act is a bandaid. My disgust comes partially from the fact that once the band aid went on, you moved on, to sanctions and the like.

Suiciding can be eliminated. No loopholes, no work arounds.. done. It just takes some time. Time I see being spent manually looking through attacks and designing and implementing retals and sanctions.

But again, that could just be me. Perhaps it is a higher priority on my list then it is on the game owner's lists. Please don't take it personally. Consider it constructive criticism.

When i have the time i do plan on trying to make some changes to make it harder to suicide. But i just don't have it right now. My work day is sun up to sun down and then i do have a family i need to tend to as well. As many others here do too.

I understand RL is priority, as it is with everyone. No arguement.

We are doing the best we can. And we are trying to make changes that help the game. And i think the changes we have made will not only KEEP more members playing, it will attract more members too.
We will always lose a few members here and there cause they are not happy with certain changes.

We just have a difference of opinion, a different philosophy I suppose. I think that a broken sound card should be fixed before upgrading my video card. You think that a better video card will help people ignore the broken sound card.......

I'm not so much against additions and changes to make the game better, I am against additions and changes taking precedence over fixing whats already broken.

Fancy new layouts and added features may get more members to stay and play but for how long..... how long will they stare at the graphics of that upgraded video card before they realize the sound card is broken...?

and not to mention, we have had some ideas on suiciding prevention stuff for the code, but not a lot. It's not as easy as you may think it is. Change one little thing and the ripple effect goes down the line and you have to change tons of other things.
anyway, sorry your "disgusted". We are doing the best we can.

Taking my snippet as an example what ripples and other things would need to be changed by adding a few lines of code to modify the readiness of an attack?

I'm not ignorant to programming so I don't think that I underestimate the implications of code change as much as you may think I do.

It should be as OOP as possible, When you pull the values from the DB into the arrays utilized in the attack script, adding a few lines of code to

1. check if a unit is 50% or more of total military strength
2. modify the readiness value ( 60% ships = 40% readiness)
3. return to previously coded attack script.

Shouldnt require code changes in any other places but attacking or have to much of a ripple. And in one fell swoop you eliminate the classic suicide of someone going 100% of a unit and hobbling a top state.....

We will just have to agree to disagree.

I understand what you are saying, but i don't know if you understand how this all really works.

The Patriot Act wasn't set up to babysit every little illegal or war attack. So if you go off and spend 3 or 4 turns bombing structures nothing is going to happen.

It's the massive bombings or attacks that we will go after.

Blowing up 200 buildings to get a point across is one thing. Blowing up over a thousand is another.

But i would like to point something out. Some in your nation say that admins should not be interfering and forcing ppl to play a certain way, but isn't this what your nation does? I mean you say that if you find they have no spies, then you bomb them to prove a point? And that's ok? But if someone suicides and i mark them a terrorist to prove a point that's not ok?

I'm kinda getting the feeling that only certain people's ideas are correct, but mine are not.

I find it funny that people get suicided and complain like crazy, but then have no problem going off and bombing other states to make a point.


*edit* just to be clear, i'm not speaking to just you grim.. i'm speaking in general. :-)

As I stated, find one instance where a state with more than 0 spies has been the victim of thousands of buildings being blown up. Normally only people with 0 spies are victim of destructive op attacks or people at war.

There is a huge difference between having 4 million jets and getting beat by someone with 16 million cause thats all they have because THEY WANT TO SUICIDE YOU

and having 0 spies, and gettign destructive opped, when as I said before, having SOME spies 99.9% of the time will prevent you from EVER being destructive opped.

SO in summary the diefference is, destructive ops can and always have been 99% preventable by having some spies on hand, as normally unless you have 0 that is not the preferred method of "suicide" because if you have a spy peopel don't want to get caught.

Where as there is no amount of jets or ships you can have short of 100% which will leave you open in another area to prevent a suicider from going 100% in an area you are not strong in, in order to suicide you.


Huge difference. Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Fangz]

one of the key elements was a reverse readiness loss based on strength percentage per unit above 50. Meaning if any units military strength was 50% or more of your total military strength it reduced your readiness by a reverse percentage.

so if 90% of your total military strength is ships, your attacking at 10% readiness, forcing a balanced state with balanced units while still providing the freedom to choose which units to carry.

If anyone can come up with a way around that, so a suicider will be able to go 100% jets to suicide on a top state attacking at 0% readiness I'm all ears........? And if you ask me, forcing people to play smart, and eliminating suiciding is much better then enabling them to play stupid, still allowing suiciding but babysitting it.

this is a good solution...but this puts a real stranglehold on people during upgrading.

if something like this were implemented it would probably be a good idea to show a breakdown of military strength in your state overview (like there is a breakdown of land in global/nation overviews). a pie chart or even just a % breakdown would help manage these figures without having to constantly run calculations. at the least, you should get a warning when you do go over 50% so you know to make corrections.

[nosejam]

Say that system was in place, would you be ok with it being removed if war was declared?

[MarineRecon]

geez y do we always have to change formulas it just makes it more confusing and i dont wanna have to relearn and figure out ways to make my gameplay better even more...i dont have all day long to sit here trying to figure out how these changes affect how i play and such thats to much its just a game...u shouldnt have to have spies if u dont want to...yeah if you go to war then ure screwed or if u want an intel u cant get it but y should sumbody have to have spies to prevent being suicided...hence the patriot act u shouldnt be suiciding in the first place

[Divine Intervention]

Rassputtin. tell me please. a good example would have been this set. after EX attacked they jumped to states that were like 15mill inf 5mill jets 6 mill ships. me and James were the only states able to break them. i was the only one who had enough stock (and turns to use it) + units on PM to jump ( i jumped 12mill inf 10mill jets 8mill ships). if we used your idea then my players would have all had to make states which would have been useless in a war. the only way we were able to kill the EX states is for my players to go jet heavy and break them by pure ARs (and then use the money accumilated over the strikes to get AA defence)...so if we had your 60% jets = 40% readiness rules then there would have been no chance for us it totally screws the concept of breakers. how is someone supposed to kill a top state in a war if you don't have an equally good player who is also netting? you can't. you need a top stocker whod go heavy on a unit to allow his team mates to kill the target. as nosejam said, it would have to be modified for war. and also...what about people who have like ...1k spies 20k infantry. so do they have 0% readiness ?

[Rassputtin]

Say that system was in place, would you be ok with it being removed if war was declared?

It wouldnt have to be.... you don't need a breaker to go 100% ships, because if the person your trying to break is ship heavy above 50% thier readiness will be reduced... so with two balanced states why would you need to disable the system.

I imagine your referring to a situation where the target is too big for you, but If the target is just to large..... fail some attacks, get a big friend to help you out, disabling the system for war declaration will allow suiciders to make little nation with minimum amount of members, declare war disable the system adn suicide...............

Its just unrealistic an uncessary to allow other than for easy convenience of not having to network to get help from a bigger state or having a bigger state yourself.

But in the end its not my decision and has nothing to do with what I would be willing to allow or disallow. But if it was, i may be willing increase the percentage from 50% to something a little higher for war time declarations, but that would result in more code changes, and people declaring on some small nation for no reason just to increase the percentage....... disabling it for any reason in any way just requires more code to prevent abuse of disabling... if you keep it enabled your good to go.

[Fangz]

i like it all the time. it adds new breaking strategies during war that don't involve AA. u can now use sabotage airbases and kamikaze to lower readiness to 50% if a target state isn't balanced with ships and inf.

[::LD::GrimReapr]

im confused about this thread. Grim ur not even marked as a terrorist .

Do I have to be marked as a suicider or terrorist to not agree with said decision?

Some in your nation say that admins should not be interfering and forcing ppl to play a certain way, but isn't this what your nation does?

Our nation does it no more than some other Nations or people playing this game. We arent the only ones complaining about suicides.

I mean you say that if you find they have no spies, then you bomb them to prove a point? And that's ok? But if someone suicides and i mark them a terrorist to prove a point that's not ok?

I never said it wasnt ok. I was just stating that as Rass and I stated it can be prevented 99.5% of the time by having spies or TDN.
I stated above that I have used destructive spy Ops but You and Tnova allready knew that. But you show me where I used it on someone with spies I can garuntee you that you wont find that anywhere unless you include failing failed intel as destructive.

I'm kinda getting the feeling that only certain people's ideas are correct, but mine are not.

I dont recall saying your Ideas arent correct. As I tell everyone I train at work My way may not be the best way its what works best for me. If you can find a better way I will be more than happy to try it your way.

*edit* just to be clear, i'm not speaking to just you grim.. i'm speaking in general. :-)

No offense taken I am just trying to do my part to help make the game better is all. As I know you and the other Admin have been doin as well.
Rest assured I am not making a personal attack against any Admin either
you guys/gals are doin 1 hell of a job but as Rass stated I would also like to see certain aspects of the game changed before others.

[Xavior]

I hope no one jumps too quickly to conclusions without having all the facts. That especially includes you, Marine.

If anyone here thinks i have 'malicious intent', they are wrong. If anyone here thinks i 'ruin top states for fun', they are wrong. If anyone here thinks i am a 'suicider', they are dead wrong.

I've been trying to stay low while getting a hold of Mr. P, but since I have not been able to do so all weekend, i will post here.

Personally, I feel as i have been caught in the threads of imperfections of a new system. I do not disagree with the system, and i do not agree with the system. I have never been a fan of 'divine intervention' (not you, Anton), I feel that a self-policing society is best, but we all know that we cannot reliabely count on ourselves for that. I appreciate the work that Mr. P and Tnova does for this game.

Now only a select few know about my circumstances (and that does not include you, Marine), but i'd like to point out a few things. If the only attacks outside of war which are accepted are SA, regular spy op, and military esp, then why make the other 'aggressive' options available at all? Why not just take them away all together? I come back to Marine's statement, that because of this new Patriot Act, states can run with 0 spies if they wish. States can run with 0 jets/agm if they wish. Why? Because if anyone tries to AR or spy op them, the offending state gets deleted! Well you can say that if a war comes along, they are toast. But how many wars occur each set? There should be consequences for not having any spies, just like there always have been. How hard is it to buy 400k spies, not even upgraded? Because I assure you, the casual 'suicider' will not even try to spy op them if there is the slightest chance that they may fail due to the huge random factor.

Now coming back to my situation, I did not just randomly pick a state with 0 spies and blow up a few k buildings. If anyone cares, the targeted state is a friend of mine in RL. We live on the same freaking street, he is new, i've been teaching him. I do not try to justify my actions, but this game has consequences. It always had. I see him with 0 spies, when I always tell him to upgrade spies right after infantry and to spy his targets. Did i destroy more than i should have? Maybe. Do i expect the Admin to know about this? No. But I've been playing for a long time, how many times have you seen me ruin someones state just for the fun of it? Did i go out and kill a random state and AA several other states for a 'grudge'? Am i 'having my grudges'? Marine, you don't know half of what happened, so please stop running your mouth because everyone here knows whos the real 'suicider'. And it sure as hell ain't me.

Now, I have already accepted any punishments which i may have to suffer. I am not angry about this, I appreciate what Mr. P and Tnova do for this game. Now, perhaps the Admin could let me know what exactly the punishments are. The Patriot Act thread doesn't cover the 'suicider' part, only the cheater part.

Oh yeah Marine, I've decided to sit for the rest of the set. And not because you try to get my nation to reject me, but because I wouldn't want to let my nation's name get ruined along with mine. So stop your idle threats, and take a look in the mirror.

[-Chris-]

Patriot act is bull****, enough said.