Regulations of the NW Patriot Act

[Crimson Shadow]

difference is. if i have 0 spies and bamboozled because of it...i don't know who did it. if i have 50mill inf and 0 ships and i get AAed...i know exactly who did it.

Exactly my thoughts. I think spy ops should be legal simply because they are the only unit that if successful, it is anonymous. For every other attack all you must do is check the GE or Home News and you can see exactly who it was.

Terrorist spy ops should be allowed unlimited attempts as long as you fail. If you send 200 and succeed 199 and fail one, then you will be labeled terrorist. Only problem that I could think of with this would be if someone was doing a legal intel and got caught while the terrorism was occurring (admin intervention to check?)


EDIT: Wow this is moving fast. 5 new posts in the time it took me to type that

[Divine Intervention]

Personally, I believe a pink name for the set will do. Deletion of the state (just like rollbacks) is divine intervention, and I am opposed to that.

[Mr President]

well the defending state can report the player who failed the 1 spy op an investigation can be done to see whether he was responsible for the others (because who knows, maybe person A did 90 attacks whilst you were on 0 spies then you bought 300k and someone fails overview) and then appropriate measures should be taken afterwards (w/e the punishments are decided to be).

fact is. this is a completely different scenario to the ones previously listed because here you know who did the attacks (unless as i said, was some freak accident).

The reason i ask such ridiculous questions is i have found if i don't ask now then things get left out and then i get hammered on them later on.

Personally, I believe a pink name for the set will do. Deletion of the state (just like rollbacks) is divine intervention, and I am opposed to that.

So your saying no matter what, no rollbacks and no deletions.. Just pink names?

[::LD::GrimReapr]

Marked as a terrorist and whatever other punishment goes with it.
Because when that person logs in and sees that amount of money or buildings or pop killed and then that 1 that failed is gonna be the one that proves who it was that did it because of the time log of when things happened. Because if you do 5-10 and dont get caught because the person doesnt have spies and go back to do it again and he still dont have spies his bad. If he does and you get caught then your bad you know the risks and implications of your actions. I guess thats my opinion on it. Im sure my Bro Rass will be inserting his 25 cents worth then as well.

[Rassputtin]

Suiciding - "Someone who destroys someone else for no reason or logical/strategical gain".

Nobody wants to take the thrill of warring out of this game. What we want is to take or limit the best we can, suiciding.

If you go to war due to revenge, you are not a suicider. If you war to advance in the scores, you are not a suicider. If you war as a pre-emptive action to protect your nation you are not a suicider. This is mainly a war game and people love to war. All we are doing is trying to help keep the ones who like to go off and destroy a state or a nation cause they find it funny and then hide there identity.

The defnition needs to be updated IMO with -

Suiciding - "Someone who destroys someone else for no reason or logical/strategical gain".

and

and then hide there identity.

Which non simplified means, there is no reason for the destruction, they often act alone or maybe with one other person. These acts are done with no strategical gain to the attacker because they are immediately killed. (why its called suicide) And the attacker then hides thier identity by not confessing to the acts, although the state name and leader name are clear, only an admin could know "WHO' it really was. THE MAIN THING I THINK is that a suicider can not currently be stopped within the gameplay mechanics presently utilized.

That is a suicide. (imo) The simplified definition i think may be a detriment. Anyway moving on.

The punishments are clearly stated, and i think need minor work but that will come later as I am more concerned with what is even potentially considered a suicide. More importantly, as it pertains to spy ops.

Currently spy ops in excess are considered suicide. I think it is grossly wrong to place them into the same category, or to place thier use into the same column as suiciding actions.

Simply by reading the definition I"ve provided above you can see its not the same, but I will elaborate to better drive home my points.

1. Spies are in this game and many games as a covert unit. Meant to carry out covert operations preferably without getting caught. Whether it be to gather information, or perform sabotage, their sole purpose of existing is to carry out these missions covertly. When carried out covertly there is no chance of consequence which is the whole purpose of covert.

2. To fail an op alerts the target of whom and what covert operatives were doing on thier soil. Which depending on what they were doing is grounds for very severe consequences, sometimes death if the operatives are carrying out sabatoge missions. If you engage in espionage to carelessly you will be found out and pay the consequences.

3. The random factor on spy success and failure is 100 times plus or minus. So attacking spies and defending spies are on a whim up to 100 times stronger or weaker during every attack. Because of this it is VERY EASY for a defenders spies to catch attacking spies in the act. Which is why 99% of the time, unless at war states do not engage in destructive spy ops, the risks of getting caught are to high.

4. The fact that your spies can be 100 times stronger than they really are, while at teh same time attacking spies can be 100 times weaker than they really are means that someone would need 200 times more spy strength then you in order to successfully covert op you with 0% chance of failure.

5. Normally the only person with 200 times the military spy strength of someone else is a suicider who would have to have gone very heavy spy production in order to get that margin, or a very large state in comparison to a very small state, in which case, unless at war, normally a top ten netter isn't going to utilize his 200 times strength to mess with someone ranked 240th.

6. The exception to the rule is in those instances when a state feels it needs no spies. Thereby making him totally defenseless to detect covert operations. 100 times 0 is still 0. So 1 spy can do 300 covert operations without ever dreaming of failure. This is the most often occurence of destructive spy ops being used. It is the only time damage can be done to a competitor without fear of repercussions or consequences.

7. Spies are unique from the other units in every way, much like warring states can declare and make easy fodder of netters who think they need no jets, agms or ships, states who feel spies are important to the protection of thier state can make easy fodder of those who don't.

Spy opping someone who has no spies should not be considered a terroristic act for several key reasons.

Unlike tradionatal suiciding it can be prevented by acquiring spies, a state is choosing to be defenseless. Unlike a tradional suicide where the attacker can go 100% ships and break a state. The defending state has no choice to defend himself, he can not go 100% ships to defend against ships cause his state would be useless and the attacker would see that before hand and simply go jets. You can not stop a suicider. You can stop a destructive spy op, even with 200 times less spy military strength.

[Xavior]

The reason i ask such ridiculous questions is i have found if i don't ask now then things get left out and then i get hammered on them later on.



So your saying no matter what, no rollbacks and no deletions.. Just pink names?

We are talking first offense here. And unless a bunch of suiciders screw over half the nations, then no rollbacks should be used. These are suiciders, not cheaters.

I remember when Wide was in first place but got suicided. However, they were tagged cheaters a day later, this is when a rollback should happen.

[Rassputtin]

ok.. i see your point on that..

but my question is, if someone does 100 spy ops and passes 99 of them but fails 1, what should happen?

Nothing should happen. Well let me re-phrase that, whatever the victim and his nation think should happen as far as what they are gonna do about it.

As I said spies are intended to carry out covert missions. Part of being covert means, not necessarily at war, but still doing stuff that could cause one.

If I'm spy opping someone with 0 spies, and on my 100th try they got online and bought some spies and caught me then.... My hand is in the cookie jar.

And it is up to the victim nation to decide what to do.

I think that you will find that unless someone tries to make a point to prove me wrong, you will never see someone go 100% spies to suicide another state. Its simply a less effective means of doing it. Ga kills more pop then genocide, and you can't destroy land with spies.

I think that the only time admin should even consider looking into a spy op related "Suicide Report" submitted by a player is if that player had spies and thinks that someone went predominintly spy heavy to suicide them, or some rogue gunmen went op crazy not caring that he's getting caught every 4 tries and doesnt care if he's gonna die.

If thats not the situation, its not a suicide. If the player has 0 spies, delete report, if a player is in the top 20 with 2 days to go and has 10k spies, delete report.

To me it seems pretty clear what would be spy suicide and what would be someone trying NOT TO GET CAUGHT but getting nabbed with thier hand in the cookie jar.

And that is the fundamental difference. When I destroy someones buildings with 0 spies I do not want to get caught, I do not want to die for it. A suicider... doesnt care, and his actions will show he doesnt care. Which means he will either get caught multiple times on his opping run, or he will be insanely spy heavy to try to get away with it.

But even then you could see it, he would get caught, essentially once you hit say a million spies, were talking 200million spies to get opped with 0 chance of failure.

So like I said, carrying spies eliminates getting spy raped. unlike a suicider where you can do nothing to prevent it.

[Rassputtin]

Bump,


no one else has anything to say about this?

[Calvin74]

i think by doing what the admins just did ruins the point of having offensive spy ops
the whole point is that you can do it an not get caught
the spy random factor is so crazy that if you have 100-200k spies all set you will probably catch whoever is doing this to you and you won't have to worry about admins telling you what you would know if you had run a decent state

[Mr President]

It seems since the Patriot Act was put in place, members feel that anytime they are attacked they should get a roll back or the state marked a terrorist.
This is not the case. Whatever happened to states or nations fighting for there own honor? We are not here to preserve everyone a perfect set each time. We will not fix every attack. people do still have a right to play anyway they want to. And it's not our job to always fix it.

A certain member has been going around AAing others, and everyone is sitting there waiting for the admins to do something about it. Why would he not be killed already? The Patriot Act is not a safety blanket for every member. You all still have to take responsibility for protecting your states.