WW3or4

[Will]

regarding your first point its so wrong that it makes me laugh. regarding your second point (which also makes me laugh): yeah, sure the Germans didn't go round with the purpose of exterminating all slavs and Jews. good one Will. of and you make it sound as if there was a choice of armies to compare. The Brits + Americans didn't have anything to "rape, murder and loot" because they mostly fought in africa and we all know, no one wants to rape or loot (well, nothing to loot) anything there. also, any reason why you specify the Russians? do you have any source which proves that they were disproportionately more aggressive than any other nationality involved in WW2? plox sharez.

Where did I say the Germans didn't commit atrocities? We're talking about the Red Army here not the Wehrmacht or the SS. And although you don't like to admit it, they behaved like beasts compared to the western powers, even in countries that switched sides like hungary. Out of the 4 occupying powers it went something like:

Russia
France
US
Britain

Worst to best in terms of crimes against German civilians.

And the British and Americans only fought in Africa? did you not cover what happened on June 6th, 1944 when you did History Anton?

Try going to sleep tonight without reading Stalin's account of the war beforehand. It will do you a world of good

[Bram Gotink]

Where did I say the Germans didn't commit atrocities? We're talking about the Red Army here not the Wehrmacht or the SS. And although you don't like to admit it, they behaved like beasts compared to the western powers, even in countries that switched sides like hungary. Out of the 4 occupying powers it went something like:

Russia
France
US
Britain

Worst to best in terms of crimes against German civilians.

And the British and Americans only fought in Africa? did you not cover what happened on June 6th, 1944 when you did History Anton?

Try going to sleep tonight without reading Stalin's account of the war beforehand. It will do you a world of good

I've seen a lot of things about the Red army being exceptionally violent. IIRC, Stalin gave his army one day to do whatever they liked, including rape, pillaging, murder,...

Sorry, Antony, but you are wrong.

[Divine Intervention]

Where did I say the Germans didn't commit atrocities? We're talking about the Red Army here not the Wehrmacht or the SS. And although you don't like to admit it, they behaved like beasts compared to the western powers, even in countries that switched sides like hungary. Out of the 4 occupying powers it went something like:

Russia
France
US
Britain

Worst to best in terms of crimes against German civilians.

And the British and Americans only fought in Africa? did you not cover what happened on June 6th, 1944 when you did History Anton?

Try going to sleep tonight without reading Stalin's account of the war beforehand. It will do you a world of good

heh, maybe out of the allied powers, but you can't even begin comparing it to what the Germans did. June 6th 1944? i know perfectly well what happened. im not even going to bother trying to compare the efforts of the USSR, its people and its army to some fighting in africa, some bombing runs and a beach landing 1 year before the war is over.

[Will]

heh, maybe out of the allied powers, but you can't even begin comparing it to what the Germans did. June 6th 1944? i know perfectly well what happened. im not even going to bother trying to compare the efforts of the USSR, its people and its army to some fighting in africa, some bombing runs and a beach landing 1 year before the war is over.

How about the Battle of Britain? or Lend lease? If Hitler had won the BoB, and invaded the UK he would have been laughing. The US would never have gotten involved without the UK free, and without the US the USSR could have said goodbye to lend-lease. Hitler would have been free to devote the whole of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe to Barbarossa, no need to keep planes/AA guns (some of which could be used for anti-tank purposes) back to stop British/American bombers, no need to keep divisions in France or send them to North Africa. If Britain had gone down you would see a German advance across either Turkey or Persia into the Cacausus oil fields which would utterly screw Russia.

Stop saying that WW2 was some kind of Russian victory with a little help from the British and Americans. That is as dishonest as it gets.

[Hoebawt]

I agree with u 100% Will..... Russia would have fallen if ti wasnt for lend lease....also if UK did Fall US would have ended up backing the Germans since Germany was a favorite in USA

[Bram Gotink]

How about the Battle of Britain? or Lend lease? If Hitler had won the BoB, and invaded the UK he would have been laughing. The US would never have gotten involved without the UK free, and without the US the USSR could have said goodbye to lend-lease. Hitler would have been free to devote the whole of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe to Barbarossa, no need to keep planes/AA guns (some of which could be used for anti-tank purposes) back to stop British/American bombers, no need to keep divisions in France or send them to North Africa. If Britain had gone down you would see a German advance across either Turkey or Persia into the Cacausus oil fields which would utterly screw Russia.

Stop saying that WW2 was some kind of Russian victory with a little help from the British and Americans. That is as dishonest as it gets.

I concur. If WW II was any kind of victory, it was an allied victory. And a bloody one as well.

I've seen the figures, and IIRC, far more Russian citizen died than Russian soldiers ... which I found odd.
More German citizens died than soldiers. Perhaps the bombing of Dresden etc. had anything to do with that?

To quote my prof. Philosophy: "In the 20th century, we lost some morals & values. In 1900, there was a clear difference between soldiers and citizens. During the 20th century, we somehow lost that difference so that now, citizens and soldiers are slaughtered alike."

No one should call this a true victory. Okay, the allied forces "won" the war, but I wouldn't actually call it a victory b/c of the very high price paid by humanity.

[Hoebawt]

PFFFT france won the war

[Divine Intervention]

How about the Battle of Britain? or Lend lease? If Hitler had won the BoB, and invaded the UK he would have been laughing. The US would never have gotten involved without the UK free, and without the US the USSR could have said goodbye to lend-lease. Hitler would have been free to devote the whole of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe to Barbarossa, no need to keep planes/AA guns (some of which could be used for anti-tank purposes) back to stop British/American bombers, no need to keep divisions in France or send them to North Africa. If Britain had gone down you would see a German advance across either Turkey or Persia into the Cacausus oil fields which would utterly screw Russia.

Stop saying that WW2 was some kind of Russian victory with a little help from the British and Americans. That is as dishonest as it gets.

Theres no chance that Hitler would have been able to invade the UK even if he had won the BoB. The only way i can see is some sort of massive German Airborne paratrooper attack. And BoB was over before the invasion of USSR began.

[Hoebawt]

Acctually Hitler had a plan called Operation Sea LIon.... where he was gonna use Hybrid Tank transport to attack ENgland

[Divine Intervention]

for a succesful invasion to occur the British navy, airforce, coastal defences. submarine force and the mine fields all had to be destroyed. not to mention Nazi German didn't have the scale to facilite a mass invasion that would have been needed to complete their objective. i doubt the 120k or w/e max they could have transported through a combination of amphibious assaults and air landings would have been suffiicient (let alone possible considering what would have been needed to be done prior in order to achieve this).